Nurses being forced to go back to school

martymoose, BSN, RN · Sep 16, 2014

I guess the point is , that if someone with 10 + or so years and is ADN, they went into the job realizing that that was all that was required. Now the bar is being raised, but look at the avg age of an ADN who is now being told to go back and get that almighty BSN.It's one thing if I was told nursing is a 4 year degree 10 + years ago, then of course I would have decided if that was worth it or not.

I suppose it comes down to this: keep the job, but incur a bill of anywhere from 10,000, to , say, 80,000 dollars in loans, or find a job in some other "profession".If someone is in the > 40 y/o group, will you ever recoup that loan amount?? probably not. You sure don't get paid extra for incurring that kind of debt, and it seems hospitals aren't even paying tuition benefits any longer.

I've come to the conclusion that if I am going to be forced to go back to school, it will be for something else anyway. The ADN counts pretty much as a liberal arts degree for a 4 yr degree in some other field. If anything, that was worth it....

martymoose, BSN, RN · Sep 16, 2014

Because times, and expectations, change. People used to be able to get a good-paying job, have a successful career, support a family, and have a comfortable, middle-class life with just a high-school diploma, but that's not really possible any more. Those days are gone, and they're not coming back. I don't hear a lot of people complaining about how unfair and unreasonable that is.

You bet your sweet bippy I complain about how unfair that is.......I had that life, then went into nursing...... :down:

elkpark · Sep 16, 2014

I guess the point is , that if someone with 10 + or so years and is ADN, they went into the job realizing that that was all that was required. Now the bar is being raised, but look at the avg age of an ADN who is now being told to go back and get that almighty BSN.It's one thing if I was told nursing is a 4 year degree 10 + years ago, then of course I would have decided if that was worth it or not.
I suppose it comes down to this: keep the job, but incur a bill of anywhere from 10,000, to , say, 80,000 dollars in loans, or find a job in some other "profession".If someone is in the > 40 y/o group, will you ever recoup that loan amount?? probably not. You sure don't get paid extra for incurring that kind of debt, and it seems hospitals aren't even paying tuition benefits any longer.
I've come to the conclusion that if I am going to be forced to go back to school, it will be for something else anyway. The ADN counts pretty much as a liberal arts degree for a 4 yr degree in some other field. If anything, that was worth it....

Again, times and expectations change. I went into nursing 30 years ago, via a hospital-based diploma program. Since then I, and lots of others, have chosen to return to school to complete a BSN (I was in my mid-30s at the time), because there were things I wanted to do in my career that were going to require a BSN. The handwriting has been on the wall on this issue for quite some time. As for the expense, anyone who would spend $80,000, or even half that, to get a BSN is crazy. I was able to complete mine at a nearby state university, attending one evening and one full day a week (the program was designed for working RNs, as most BSN completion programs are), for three semesters. I don't remember what it cost, but I do know I was able to pay for it out-of-pocket as I went without it being any particular burden on my finances. Lots of employers will help pay at least part of the cost.

It's like the old cliche' about sharks; we move forward or we die. People who aren't willing to move forward and adapt to changing expectations in nursing are going to get left behind. If you don't mind getting left behind, that's fine and that's each individual's choice. But the expectations are changing (have been for some time), and we're not likely to go back to the former expectations, even when the economy improves. Is it "fair"? Maybe not, but that never seems to matter in these kinds of scenarios.

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Sep 17, 2014

I filled out the FAFSA one year when I was considering going back to school and it told me I should be able to come up with $20,000 year for tuition, basically 1/3 of my income. How realistic is that? Obviously one would need to take out student loans. The public university by me is over $10,000 a year and the private ones are $20,000 to 30,000 plus. I don't have thousands of dollars available to go back to school, nor do I want to take out any student loans. Tuition reimbursement is $2,000 a year with all sorts of strings attached and would be lucky to cover one class a year, not very realistic!

NicuGal, MSN, RN · Sep 17, 2014

I paid for both of my degrees out of pocket...in today's world, there is no way I could do it. Tuition reimbursement isn't great everywhere.

I went back to bedside nursing because I missed it. If I hadn't gone back to school rather quickly, I

Probably wouldn't have, especially at this point in my life. We will have to agree to disagree, I don't think we should be casting aside people with 30+years of experience.

HazelLPN, LPN · Sep 17, 2014

At one time, elementary school teachers didn't have degrees. (My mother is a retired teacher...still very much alive at 102..still bosses me around). They trained at what was called a Normal School that prepared women (single women that is) to teach. Eventually, times change and teachers had to earn a BA/BS degree. The old school marms weren't put out to pasture, but encouraged to return to school for the degree and were paid more once they had the degree. The ones who didn't go back to school were generally grandfathered in. Now, it is common for teachers to have to get their masters degrees to earn a continuing contract. If they do not go back to school, they stay at a lower pay rate and are on a one year limited contract from year to year. It works the same with our school RNs. If they earn their MSN or MEd, they get a nice pay raise and a continuing contract.

Nobody is put out to pasture, as teachers (and their unions) have figured out that experience does matter and a new graduate masters degree kid is no match for an experienced teacher who has their BA/BS.

Formal education is important. So is experience. What is wrong with grandfathering nurses in and then using attrition to replace these diploma LPNs/RNs and ADNs with BSNs? What would be wrong with paying BSNs more money to help off set the cost?

I know the answer. Hospital administrators are doing it the cheap and easy way and spinning it to make it seem like its best for patients.

Yes, the writing is on the wall. Any young person who wants to be a nurse really needs to bite the bullet and get that BSN.

elkpark · Sep 18, 2014

I paid for both of my degrees out of pocket...in today's world, there is no way I could do it. Tuition reimbursement isn't great everywhere.
I went back to bedside nursing because I missed it. If I hadn't gone back to school rather quickly, I
Probably wouldn't have, especially at this point in my life. We will have to agree to disagree, I don't think we should be casting aside people with 30+years of experience.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think we "should" be kicking out people with decades of experience; but what you, I, or anyone else on this board thinks doesn't really matter. The bottom line is that employers can do it, and a growing number of them are doing it. We can disagree with that until the cows come home, but that doesn't change anything.

vokaybo · Sep 18, 2014

I used to think the way you think until I went through the BSN program myself voluntarily. I started out as an LPN 28 years ago and then went back to school 18 years ago to get my AASN. I just completed the BSN program through GCU and I have learned so much. Compassion and caring is good but growing knowledge is always a plus. I will be starting my MSN in January. Yes, it is expensive but more and more opportunities are available. Also, the latest evidence shows quality of patient care increases with higher degrees. The problem is that many professors teach that the BSN is "better" all around than the "ADN/AASN" nurse which can be totally false. I have worked with BSN nurses with the mentality that work does not have to be done by them but I have also worked with the BSN nurses who work their tales off. Even though the mentality has been taught over the years, the only thing true is that the knowledge is greater and at higher levels. The individual person and their work ethics is what determines how good a nurse they are. Education is never a bad thing but should be a choice. That being said, many hospitals are no longer hiring anyone below BSN level. I wish you good luck.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Sep 18, 2014

This reply is partially a vent, partially an honest question with a longish preface. To be clear, I am working on my BSN now, I am not anti-intellectual, and I do not buy into the false dilemma of street smarts vs. book smarts. But perhaps this helps clarify why the frustration over needing that BSN.

The introduction of my RN-BSN program was a nursing theory class, the foundation of "professional" nursing. Our faculty have one pet theory so we only learned about that one theory, vs. an overview of all the prominent nursing theories. This particular theory heavily integrates new age spiritual practices and concepts; in fact, the text included references from Deepak Chopra (which, side note, was extremely uncomfortable for me as a Reformed Baptist to sit through. I'd love to have heard a lecture on the effectual call...it has about as much to do with nursing as Deepak lol!!) For one of the classes towards the end of the semester, our instructor brought in her diving rods and showed how she used them to find where the energy in her yard was most optimal to build her labyrinth. She showed us a photo of herself that somehow captured her aura. We learned about chakras and qi.

Here's a snippet from the book: Modeling and Role Modeling: A View from the Client's World, edited by Helen Erickson.

"The relationship between nurse and client can also be expressed in terms of an energy field. Watson (1999), one of health care's key leaders in holistic nursing, stated that when the nurse if sully present with the client, nurse and client connect on an energetic level, creating what she describes as a Caring Field, a new field of consciousness and possibilities. She states, 'The transpersonal caring field resides within a unitary field of consciousness and energy that transcends time, space, and physicality (unity of mind-body-spirit nature universe)"...Nurses can influence the caring field through their intentions, actions, thoughts, and feelings. Edwards proposes that healing occurs when a resonance is set between the client and healer as they meet in The Field."

Uh....

And then, the only actual science class required as part of the BScienceN completion program was patho...which was SO much less rigorous than the patho I took for my ASN because these tests are all online and open book. I have not had one proctored exam since beginning this program.

Which brings me to my question. What type of education would better demonstrate our ability to be a well-rounded higher-educated individual? The ability to BS one's way through Nursing By Deepak, or the ability to get an A or a B in o-chem or upper level biology? Why Deepak, and why not advanced bedside classes such as (making up courses here) Hemodynamics in Critical Care, or Neurological Aspects of Pain Management?

That's what I personally find frustrating.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Sep 20, 2014

Shame on nursing education for requiring such BS as nursing theory. If I knew how, I'd set up a website so that anyone could e-mail the NLN with their opinion of this requirement. If a person already has earned credits for patho. then it's stupid to have to take it again. However, I find it hard to believe that a 2 year program could work in a 3 credit patho. course into the curriculum. Our "leaders" take too little interest in developing a common core curriculum for RN's going back to school for BSN. Hence, we have all these fly-by-night degree mills (not only in nursing) that simply collect the checks and graduate you, not educate you.

Here.I.Stand, BSN, RN · Sep 20, 2014

Hmm actually I just checked the program info for the tech school where I got my ADN from...turns out they don't have pathophysiology on the course list anymore. They have "Nursing: Complex health alterations 1 and 2" so not sure if that's the same thing or more nursing focused than diseases focused. They did used to, though; I graduated in fall of 2002. The class was 3 credits--1.5 hours of lecture twice per week, with a 100 point exam every 1-2 weeks in class. No exam was ever open book. I guess that does make sense to have patho as part of the RN-BSN program especially if most/all ADN programs are getting away from having it. (I do think it's a shame if that is the new norm, though.)

The reason I said the Patho class in my RN-BSN program was less rigorous was because I didn't have to memorize a single thing. All of the test questions were directly out of the textbook, which since the exams were not proctored, as long as we'd read the material and were somewhat familiar w/ it, we could find in the book. We did have to do a research paper in my RN-BSN patho class which required much more effort than any paper I wrote in my ADN patho class though, so I will give them that.

And to be clear, I wasn't complaining about having to retake it--actually it was neat to go back and re-learn the material after seeing so much of it in person. It made more sense, and was easier to apply it to nursing practice. If anything I'd like to see MORE science classes added to the bachelor of science nursing programs. :yes: I was totally complaining about having to sit through a lecture about divining rods. :banghead:

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 20, 2014

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think we "should" be kicking out people with decades of experience; but what you, I, or anyone else on this board thinks doesn't really matter. The bottom line is that employers can do it, and a growing number of them are doing it. We can disagree with that until the cows come home, but that doesn't change anything.

True but that doesn't make it right...nor does it justify what the nurse with 30 years at the bedside is suddenly lacking that only an education online can improve that nurses practice.