Nurse pressing charges

[Girlygirl69]

55 y/o male just finds out he has terminal CA. RN comes in room to administer meds and pt becomes verbally then physically abusive. Patient throws meal tray at RN hitting her in the face. No permanent damage just a really swollen black eye. Pt is deemed alert and oriented times three, would you press charges?

[pixie120]

Violence should NEVER be tolerated. Once you start making excuses for the assaulter, the logical conclusion is that a rapist should be set free because he was feeling so dejected and angry with a girlfriend relationship. We let it pass because the person is not "in his right mind!"

What about the next time? Why would anyone allow themselves to become a doormat? The OP was VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED. He deserves at least a visit from the police, a warning and a fine - if you feel so bad about his dx.

Just so it's out there, I believe in tolerance, respect and forgiveness. We tolerate a whole slew of things, and we should tolerate a whole lot more. This issue is not clear-cut,. black and white, many, many gray areas. As a nurse, when I am dealing with a patient, I am expected to deal with difficult situations, and behaviors, all day every day. Not talking about a rapist, not talking about letting someone go free, not talking about feelings, not talking about letting it pass.

Talking about the legal definitions of underlying mental concerns, what meds what this gentleman on, what were the results of his mini-mental, his depresssion scale, his support systems for the news he just recieved. Not excusing, just advocatiing. It's up to that nurse whether or not she wants to press charges. Your allegory is illogical and irrelevant to the OP's fourth degree assault, and that is only IF the police will make a report, since none was made that day. Telling the doctor and the hospital SW and family would probably make more of a dent on this guy than the legal system. THINK about it. HE just got a death sentence (cancer)(not necessarily a death sentence, but assume he's not medical, so a layman's idea of cancer is death) what is calling the cops gonna do? Probably only make him MORE angry and MORE difficult, our goal is to diffuse and descalate.

As nurses, we are REQUIRED to take the emotion out of it, this IS NOT PERSONAL, this is business, and we are LEGALLY patient advocates. If you aren't sure, research this. Ask any psych nurse how many times he/shehas been "assaulted" and what the law says about it. These are decisions for the legal system, not a jury of impromptu peers full of angst, anger and self righteous indignation, IMO.

[xtxrn, ASN, RN]

Violence should NEVER be tolerated. Once you start making excuses for the assaulter, the logical conclusion is that a rapist should be set free because he was feeling so dejected and angry with a girlfriend relationship. We let it pass because the person is not "in his right mind!"

What about the next time? Why would anyone allow themselves to become a doormat? The OP was VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED. He deserves at least a visit from the police, a warning and a fine - if you feel so bad about his dx.

OK....been looking up some definitions (and my use of 'exigent circumstances' is incorrect. There is a term for what I'm describing- not that anyone cares ).

The rapist was acting in a deliberate manner to harm someone. There is a difference between that, and reacting to information and doing something that doesn't have "harm" as the intent...

The OP described battery. Still a crime....but the sites I looked at also described some need for intent to cause harm. I think this is my main issue with this (I'm not "pro-violence" at all...I've been assaulted, badly- by someone who had been on parole for 38 days from a lesser offense...see my page for details). This is someone who reacted- not intended to harm. Was it wrong? Yes. Would I file charges? Not a chance. Cancer is not the issue at all. It's intent to cause harm.

Shades of gray.... I was on a jury (which, by the way, the defense would boot off as many folks on this thread as possible- lol- would never see trial to nail this guy to the wall :)) that charged a man with selling Mediaography. (needed 12 people to figure this out ). He was on public aid and had to take whatever job was offered to him in order to keep food on the table for his 7 kids. He was a devout Mormon, and found the job absolutely abhorrent- but he had no choice if he didn't want his kids taken away (those "circumstances" I can't find the term for:D)

So, he's working at this dump. And an undercover cop comes in and buys 4 magazines (VERY creepy - only saw 3 in the jury room...who knows what happened to the 4th- probably spontaneously combusted ). He's charged with selling Mediaography. And, technically he did. But there were other laws about the person who sells that sort of stuff being responsible for knowing the content, and another that said the exact opposite. He did sell Mediaography. It wasn't his store- he didn't buy the stuff to sell. He was stuck there to make money to keep his family together. I was incredibly young at the time, and only saw the definition of Media, and that he'd been selling it. I drove the other jurors nuts. In the end, I basically gave in (which I'm not proud of- but it was the right thing). Not guilty. Yet he fit the description of the crime. Did he cause harm to anyone? If spreading smut isn't harm, then guess not- and YES, I know the difference with this and physical injury...but the principle is the same.

Is anybody getting what I'm saying? Nobody ever react to something in a way that they regretted- maybe immediately? Maybe it wasn't an actual definable crime- but the principle is the same. Or maybe you did hurt someone (assault is verbal also- ever holler at someone and become abusive?) The guy wasn't lying in wait to nail the nurse. Not some seething lunatic who got his jollies hurting nurses.

I understand that in the public someone would probably be arrested (for the exact 'degree' of battery, I don' know). And, if there were similar things going on with the attacker, I'd hope those would be taken into consideration when the penalty stuff happened.

Since assault is also verbal- gonna call the cops and have someone arrested if they holler at you? It's assault. Better nail him before he (or she) can destroy nursing as we know it :) Gotta be consistent, or the patients will run amok and destroy us as we stand :)

I also go back to my earlier description of a parent finding out their child had been murdered, and going off on the cop who told them...are they a criminal? Exact same thing. Should they go to prison for reacting to the worst news of their life? I hope not. :heartbeat

[xtxrn, ASN, RN]

Just so it's out there, I believe in tolerance, respect and forgiveness. We tolerate a whole slew of things, and we should tolerate a whole lot more. This issue is not clear-cut,. black and white, many, many gray areas. As a nurse, when I am dealing with a patient, I am expected to deal with difficult situations, and behaviors, all day every day. Not talking about a rapist, not talking about letting someone go free, not talking about feelings, not talking about letting it pass.

Talking about the legal definitions of underlying mental concerns, what meds what this gentleman on, what were the results of his mini-mental, his depresssion scale, his support systems for the news he just recieved. Not excusing, just advocatiing. It's up to that nurse whether or not she wants to press charges. Your allegory is illogical and irrelevant to the OP's fourth degree assault, and that is only IF the police will make a report, since none was made that day. Telling the doctor and the hospital SW and family would probably make more of a dent on this guy than the legal system. THINK about it. HE just got a death sentence (cancer)(not necessarily a death sentence, but assume he's not medical, so a layman's idea of cancer is death) what is calling the cops gonna do? Probably only make him MORE angry and MORE difficult, our goal is to diffuse and descalate.

As nurses, we are REQUIRED to take the emotion out of it, this IS NOT PERSONAL, this is business, and we are LEGALLY patient advocates. If you aren't sure, research this. Ask any psych nurse how many times he/shehas been "assaulted" and what the law says about it. These are decisions for the legal system, not a jury of impromptu peers full of angst, anger and self righteous indignation, IMO.

And the OP said it was terminal.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

i cannot follow this reasoning . . . so he's not really guilty unless he intended to cause harm? could one not forsee that hitting someone with a tray might cause harm? and since that didn't cause him to not hit her with the tray, it could be argued that he therefore intended to cause harm.

again -- so he's got terminal cancer. i'm very sorry for him. that still does not give him the right to hit someone just because he feels bad. if he hit a visitor in the lobby, that would be assault and he'd go to jail. so how come it's ok to hit a nurse?

[~Mi Vida Loca~RN, ASN, RN]

I really don't think acts of violence are always black and white. I would always handle each situation individually. I understand that sometimes good people and people that have never been violent might be put in a situation that causes them to snap and it can be something they wouldn't do again or what not. Many factors to consider in my opinion and JUST being told you had a terminal illness is something I would be willing to have some understanding. Just finding out your child died, I would be understanding.

These are major life changing things that can throw a person in shock or temporary insanity.

I am not trying to say that anyone that gets horrible news should go and hit someone. I am just saying I don't think it's black and white. Hell the person could have just instantly thrown the tray and did not mean or aim for the nurse.

I had a situation once when a person had me in a corner and just kept poking me and poking me. They made sure not to touch me, had their arms on the wall on the side of my head but they made sure that if I wanted to get out of that situation I would in fact have to touch them. They knew what they were doing. I kept asking them to let me go and they would not move. They just kept taunting me. Finally I kneed them in the groin and punched them in the nose, when they fell I left. They called the cops and tried to get me arrested for assault. They fully admitted they had me in a corner taunting me but they were under the impression that as long as they didn't touch me they couldn't be in trouble.

I did not get in any trouble, in fact the person was told they were lucky I wasn't pressing charges for them holding me against my will.

Again, things are not always black and white.

[elthia]

i cannot follow this reasoning . . . so he's not really guilty unless he intended to cause harm? could one not forsee that hitting someone with a tray might cause harm? and since that didn't cause him to not hit her with the tray, it could be argued that he therefore intended to cause harm.

again -- so he's got terminal cancer. i'm very sorry for him. that still does not give him the right to hit someone just because he feels bad. if he hit a visitor in the lobby, that would be assault and he'd go to jail. so how come it's ok to hit a nurse?

i agree with ruby.

if he had road rage and caused an accident which led to someone being severely wounded or killed he would be prosecuted, even if that was not his intent. the nurse could have had lost an eye or had a facial fx, instead of just having a black eye, even though it was not his intent.

if the nurse had had more severe trauma, would we be as forgiving?

throwing things in public is one of those things that in our society is just not done in public, and the door to a hospital room is public. if he was upset and could not control that pent up rage, there were three other walls that would not have the potential for someone to walk in. there was also the bed to punch, which would not have hurt anyone.

so i'm sorry, or maybe i'm not. i just don't find this forgivable. call security, call the police, and press charges.

[rngolfer53]

I think that the exigent circumstances would be really tough to get past- personally, I would not press charges. If this was a visitor being abusive, or even a patient, who is being discharged, and doesn't like how long the paperwork is taking- then I'd consider it. But the crisis mode the patient would be in finding out about terminal CA would override his usual behavior. jmo :)

Yes, it certainly can be devastating to get news that you have CA. But, from the OP's post this escalated from verbal to physical abuse.

That says to me the Pt continued to pursue the course of abusing the nurse.

As for my reaction to this situation, the guy can do a lot of cussing and such before I'd bring in LE. But once something with the ability to physically harm me comes flying my way, the cops are getting a call.

Millions of people get devastatingly bad news every day. The vast majority don't take their anger out on innocent folks. No reason this Pt can't rise to the same level.

[xtxrn, ASN, RN]

i cannot follow this reasoning . . . so he's not really guilty unless he intended to cause harm? could one not forsee that hitting someone with a tray might cause harm? and since that didn't cause him to not hit her with the tray, it could be argued that he therefore intended to cause harm.

again -- so he's got terminal cancer. i'm very sorry for him. that still does not give him the right to hit someone just because he feels bad. if he hit a visitor in the lobby, that would be assault and he'd go to jail. so how come it's ok to hit a nurse?

guilt is not the same as pressing charges. yes- he should not have thrown the tray. was his primary intent to harm the nurse?

the cancer in and of itself is irrelevant. the mental distress of bad news (of any kind) is a contributing factor. would it have been better to not throw the tray? of course. but i don't see that he intended to hurt anyone. unintentional harm happens a lot- need to focus on the real criminals.

obviously most people disagree with me- i'm not losing sleep :)

[GadgetRN71, ASN, RN]

Violence should NEVER be tolerated. Once you start making excuses for the assaulter, the logical conclusion is that a rapist should be set free because he was feeling so dejected and angry with a girlfriend relationship. We let it pass because the person is not "in his right mind!"

What about the next time? Why would anyone allow themselves to become a doormat? The OP was VIOLENTLY ASSAULTED. He deserves at least a visit from the police, a warning and a fine - if you feel so bad about his dx.

Just because someone is ill, it sure as heck doesn't make them noble. Sometimes nice people get cancer. Sometimes, the a** holes do. We've all gotten bad news, either about ourselves or a loved one and most people don't use it as an excuse to beat someone up.

If it's a demented person-no, I wouldn't press charges. An alert and oriented person, absolutely.

[OCNRN63, RN]

i cannot follow this reasoning . . . so he's not really guilty unless he intended to cause harm? could one not forsee that hitting someone with a tray might cause harm? and since that didn't cause him to not hit her with the tray, it could be argued that he therefore intended to cause harm.

again -- so he's got terminal cancer. i'm very sorry for him. that still does not give him the right to hit someone just because he feels bad. if he hit a visitor in the lobby, that would be assault and he'd go to jail. so how come it's ok to hit a nurse?

yeah. "i shot her but i didn't mean to hurt her."

i don't remember signing up to be a punching bag when i became a nurse. i agree with caroladybelle; at least if charges are pressed it puts a red flag on that person in case something happens in the future. i would feel guilty if that person went on to harm someone else the next time he gets bad news.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

guilt is not the same as pressing charges. yes- he should not have thrown the tray. was his primary intent to harm the nurse?

the cancer in and of itself is irrelevant. the mental distress of bad news (of any kind) is a contributing factor. would it have been better to not throw the tray? of course. but i don't see that he intended to hurt anyone. unintentional harm happens a lot- need to focus on the real criminals.

obviously most people disagree with me- i'm not losing sleep :)

so it's ok to give a nurse a black eye because he's been told he has terminal cancer. is it also ok to give his wife, the doctor, the patient in the next bed or that patient's wife a black eye? what about the cashier at the pharmacy he's stopped at on the way home?

and if it's ok to give a nurse a black eye because he's been told he has terminal cancer, is it also ok to break her arm, beat her senseless or stab her?

if it's ok to give a nurse a black eye because he's been told he has terminal cancer, is it ok if he's been told his cancer might be terminal? what if he's been given 50/50 odds? what if they told him it probably wouldn't be terminal?

where to draw the line? your right to swing your arm terminates where my face begins.

[leslie :-D]

Yes, it certainly can be devastating to get news that you have CA. But, from the OP's post this escalated from verbal to physical abuse.

That says to me the Pt continued to pursue the course of abusing the nurse.

As for my reaction to this situation, the guy can do a lot of cussing and such before I'd bring in LE. But once something with the ability to physically harm me comes flying my way, the cops are getting a call.

Millions of people get devastatingly bad news every day. The vast majority don't take their anger out on innocent folks. No reason this Pt can't rise to the same level.

or, it can say the nurse continued to 'push' pt over the edge.

leslie