Shocked by MD attitude

Specialties NP

Published

I'm a new grad NP on my first job, so am on a steep learning curve in a rural primary care clinic. A female patient came in with her children and hubby for an urgent appointment. She had seen her regular doctor the day before for what she thought was a cold or flu, but now reported she felt worse and was jaundiced since this morning. She looked really sick and as I began the physical exam, she began crying due to anxiety and just feeling horrible. She was slightly jaundiced and had abdominal tenderness over her entire abdomen. The patient and her husband were also upset because when they saw their regular MD the day before, just as he was leaving he said her annual labs indicated some liver issues, but that they would have to come in for another appointment to discuss those (LFTs elevated twice the high end of normal). While the patient was in the bathroom leaving a urine sample, her husband told me he was thinking of taking his wife to the ER. He also said he knew his wife was an emotional person (which I remembered from the one other time I saw her), but he strongly felt there was something really wrong. He wondered if he should take her to the ER. My honest response was he knew his wife better than me and he needed to trust his gut feeling. I also felt something was seriously wrong.

I have a good relationship with this MD and I later reported to him what had happened. to my astonishment, he was upset because "it make him look bad" that I had said to go to the ER! He ranted on and on, said her liver issues were trivial, they were (several four letter words) and so on. He never asked how she was doing. I asserted that 1) I didn't want him blindsided if they complained about him (he doesn't have the best interpersonal skills), 2) I couldn't forbid them from going to the ER, 3) we are in a rural area and if I had ordered more tests, it would have been a 48 hour turnaround and 4) in my clinical judgment something was really wrong with her. That shut him up.

The next morning, as I walked into the office we share, first thing the MD said was ranting about that patient and he bet there was nothing wrong with her and I should call her. A couple hours later during a break, I did call her. She was glad I called and said she was admitted to the hospital and still there; a lot of tests had been run and no diagnosis had yet been made. When I reported this to the MD, he was visibly surprised, but then began ranting again! I was shocked and dismayed. Again, he didn't ask how the patient was doing. If the hospital admitted her, this clearly was not a trivial issue.

My school taught us to trust the patient and their family if they felt something was seriously wrong, and also to trust our own gut. This is because a toddler had died in that hospital when staff ignored the mother's conviction that something was seriously wrong with her child, prompting a vigorous quality improvement program for the hospital and associated schools.

I feel I did the right thing, but was very upset by this MD's attitude. If the roles had been reversed, my first concern would have been for the patient. Is his attitude common?

Specializes in Cardiology, Research, Family Practice.

I'm just being candid, and I mean this constructively. Referring patients to the ED is at times absolutely necessary, but as I'm sure you already know, it is undesirable when it is not necessary. You have described yourself as a new NP, so I gather you are building your experience base. First the first year or so, I recommend discussing cases with your MD or a peer before sending them to the ED. It is a great way to learn.

You ask if his attitude is common. Yes and no. Cursing and yelling are not common, but insecurity and defensiveness are. He might be a tad bit insecure. Although I see no evidence that you did anything untoward, just keep it in mind that he has a low threshold for what he perceives makes him "look bad". For example, you could say something along the lines of "I explained that her liver enzymes were only mildly elevated and could be due to something like FLD, etc..."

One last thing, if he continues to give you static, explain that your goal is to provide safe patient care while protecting the interests of the clinic as well. You are looking out for him too. So in an effort to collaborate, request feedback on how you could have handled the visit differently and give his feedback serious consideration. If he feels you are looking out for him, then he will also look out for you. (Please don't read into this "at the expense of the patient".)

When people complain about a nurse, I say something like, there are 3.5 million RNs in this country, we can't all be gems. The same goes with MDs. He is a person and an MD. He took it personally. Now you know. I read some good tips on this thread about communication. Navigating your MDs is a part of nursing they never talked about in nursing school.

Specializes in OB.
Thank you to everyone for the feedback. Yes, I am a new grad NP w/o RN work experience. However, I am also middle-aged and was previously a business executive, so I am not easily intimidated. :)

It didn't sound to me like you were intimidated, as I said before it sounds like you handled the situation very professionally. I was just suggesting that it is a waste of time to be "shocked" by this behavior. If that's the worst interaction you have with an MD, you're doing pretty well.

Specializes in Med/Surg/Infection Control/Geriatrics.
I'm a new grad NP on my first job, so am on a steep learning curve in a rural primary care clinic. A female patient came in with her children and hubby for an urgent appointment. She had seen her regular doctor the day before for what she thought was a cold or flu, but now reported she felt worse and was jaundiced since this morning. She looked really sick and as I began the physical exam, she began crying due to anxiety and just feeling horrible. She was slightly jaundiced and had abdominal tenderness over her entire abdomen. The patient and her husband

were also upset because when they saw their regular MD the day before, just as he was leaving he said her annual labs indicated some liver issues, but that they would have to come in for another appointment to discuss those (LFTs elevated twice the high end of normal). While the patient was in the bathroom leaving a urine sample, her husband told me he was thinking of taking his wife to the ER. He also said he knew his wife was an emotional person (which I remembered from the one other time I saw her), but he strongly felt there was something really wrong. He wondered if he should take her to the ER. My honest response was he knew his wife better than me and he needed to trust his gut feeling. I also felt something was seriously wrong.

I have a good relationship with this MD and I later reported to him what had happened. to my astonishment, he was upset because "it make him look bad" that I had said to go to the ER! He ranted on and on, said her liver issues were trivial, they were (several four letter words) and so on. He never asked how she was doing. I asserted that 1) I didn't want him blindsided if they complained about him (he doesn't have the best interpersonal skills), 2) I couldn't forbid them from going to the ER, 3) we are in a rural area and if I had ordered more tests, it would have been a 48 hour turnaround and 4) in my clinical judgment something was really wrong with her. That shut him up.

The next morning, as I walked into the office we share, first thing the MD said was ranting about that patient and he bet there was nothing wrong with her and I should call her. A couple hours later during a break, I did call her. She was glad I called and said she was admitted to the hospital and still there; a lot of tests had been run and no diagnosis had yet been made. When I reported this to the MD, he was visibly surprised, but then began ranting again! I was shocked and dismayed. Again, he didn't ask how the patient was doing. If the hospital admitted her, this clearly was not a trivial issue.

My school taught us to trust the patient and their family if they felt something was seriously wrong, and also to trust our own gut. This is because a toddler had died in that hospital when staff ignored the mother's conviction that something was seriously wrong with her child, prompting a vigorous quality improvement program for the hospital and associated schools.

I feel I did the right thing, but was very upset by this MD's attitude. If the roles had been reversed, my first concern would have been for the patient. Is his attitude common?

Sounds like our "Doctor" has a bit of an ego problem. You did the right thing. And for his information, Dr.'s do not dictate nursing practice. You advocated for your patient. Well done!

I'm a new grad NP on my first job, so am on a steep learning curve in a rural primary care clinic. A female patient came in with her children and hubby for an urgent appointment. She had seen her regular doctor the day before for what she thought was a cold or flu, but now reported she felt worse and was jaundiced since this morning. She looked really sick and as I began the physical exam, she began crying due to anxiety and just feeling horrible. She was slightly jaundiced and had abdominal tenderness over her entire abdomen. The patient and her husband were also upset because when they saw their regular MD the day before, just as he was leaving he said her annual labs indicated some liver issues, but that they would have to come in for another appointment to discuss those (LFTs elevated twice the high end of normal). While the patient was in the bathroom leaving a urine sample, her husband told me he was thinking of taking his wife to the ER. He also said he knew his wife was an emotional person (which I remembered from the one other time I saw her), but he strongly felt there was something really wrong. He wondered if he should take her to the ER. My honest response was he knew his wife better than me and he needed to trust his gut feeling. I also felt something was seriously wrong.

I have a good relationship with this MD and I later reported to him what had happened. to my astonishment, he was upset because "it make him look bad" that I had said to go to the ER! He ranted on and on, said her liver issues were trivial, they were (several four letter words) and so on. He never asked how she was doing. I asserted that 1) I didn't want him blindsided if they complained about him (he doesn't have the best interpersonal skills), 2) I couldn't forbid them from going to the ER, 3) we are in a rural area and if I had ordered more tests, it would have been a 48 hour turnaround and 4) in my clinical judgment something was really wrong with her. That shut him up.

The next morning, as I walked into the office we share, first thing the MD said was ranting about that patient and he bet there was nothing wrong with her and I should call her. A couple hours later during a break, I did call her. She was glad I called and said she was admitted to the hospital and still there; a lot of tests had been run and no diagnosis had yet been made. When I reported this to the MD, he was visibly surprised, but then began ranting again! I was shocked and dismayed. Again, he didn't ask how the patient was doing. If the hospital admitted her, this clearly was not a trivial issue.

My school taught us to trust the patient and their family if they felt something was seriously wrong, and also to trust our own gut. This is because a toddler had died in that hospital when staff ignored the mother's conviction that something was seriously wrong with her child, prompting a vigorous quality improvement program for the hospital and associated schools.

I feel I did the right thing, but was very upset by this MD's attitude. If the roles had been reversed, my first concern would have been for the patient. Is his attitude common?

In every profession there are people who will use all sorts of anger to control what appears to be a threat to their ego, their authority, their standing. Protecting one's self -image at the expense of a patient's well being in order to avoid humiliation... that's what is going on here. The answer is yes, lots of people are this way. Do you fear disillusionment now that you are officially out there in the helping world ? Your strength and openness is a virtue that will serve you well. As you explained, the body has an alarm system to protect us-- trust your instincts. And oh yes, continue to be guided by your own ethics, network with professional peers, ask questions, lead by example. Thanks so much for sharing.

He ranted on and on, said her liver issues were trivial, they were (several four letter words) and so on. He never asked how she was doing. I asserted that 1) I didn't want him blindsided if they complained about him (he doesn't have the best interpersonal skills), 2) I couldn't forbid them from going to the ER, 3) we are in a rural area and if I had ordered more tests, it would have been a 48 hour turnaround and 4) in my clinical judgment something was really wrong with her. That shut him up.

I would've been genuinely curious to know if he had an actual medical reason/other facts to explain his overall impression of the patient. I've learned all kinds of useful things (both good and bad, medical knowledge and social wisdom) from utter j.a.'s by asking questions to that effect.

I've also seen nurses, providers, and physicians approach to give someone a "heads up" on something and although the intention might be good, it doesn't come out that way. "You saw a guy with abdominal pain yesterday and diagnosed ______. Just a heads up, it was an appy. Just letting you know 'cause the family was really upset that they had to come back." [Right, and everything about the exam and findings has changed in the past 24 hours....what's your point? It can sound like the reporter agrees, when in fact their opinion is neither here nor there.] I'm sure that's not what happened here, but it happens enough that people get on edge as soon as they hear the words, "Hey...you know that guy..." (not that they should, it's just reality). It's worth considering words carefully. There are also plenty of situations where patients return and give accounts of previous interactions that are factually incorrect or even simply untrue. For these and other reasons, it's wise to follow the good advice given above and keep it very simple and factual.

You did the right thing for your patient based on your exam, not on all this other he-said/she-said/they felt.

Specializes in NICU.

Why do you ask if his attitude is common? Did you not work before as an RN and obtain sufficient experience?

Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.
Why do you ask if his attitude is common? Did you not work before as an RN and obtain sufficient experience?

FullGlass is a direct-entry NP who has not worked as an RN.

As my Mom used to say, "I hope this is the worst thing that ever happens to you."

And yes, the OP is new to the profession. We all were.

Live and learn.

Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.
As my Mom used to say, "I hope this is the worst thing that ever happens to you."

And yes, the OP is new to the profession. We all were.

Live and learn.

Oh yes indeed. Some of the things I did as a new APN make me cringe now....

Specializes in Adult Internal Medicine.
I'm a new grad NP on my first job, so am on a steep learning curve in a rural primary care clinic. A female patient came in with her children and hubby for an urgent appointment. She had seen her regular doctor the day before for what she thought was a cold or flu, but now reported she felt worse and was jaundiced since this morning. She looked really sick and as I began the physical exam, she began crying due to anxiety and just feeling horrible. She was slightly jaundiced and had abdominal tenderness over her entire abdomen. The patient and her husband were also upset because when they saw their regular MD the day before, just as he was leaving he said her annual labs indicated some liver issues, but that they would have to come in for another appointment to discuss those (LFTs elevated twice the high end of normal). While the patient was in the bathroom leaving a urine sample, her husband told me he was thinking of taking his wife to the ER. He also said he knew his wife was an emotional person (which I remembered from the one other time I saw her), but he strongly felt there was something really wrong. He wondered if he should take her to the ER. My honest response was he knew his wife better than me and he needed to trust his gut feeling. I also felt something was seriously wrong.

I have a good relationship with this MD and I later reported to him what had happened. to my astonishment, he was upset because "it make him look bad" that I had said to go to the ER! He ranted on and on, said her liver issues were trivial, they were (several four letter words) and so on. He never asked how she was doing. I asserted that 1) I didn't want him blindsided if they complained about him (he doesn't have the best interpersonal skills), 2) I couldn't forbid them from going to the ER, 3) we are in a rural area and if I had ordered more tests, it would have been a 48 hour turnaround and 4) in my clinical judgment something was really wrong with her. That shut him up.

The next morning, as I walked into the office we share, first thing the MD said was ranting about that patient and he bet there was nothing wrong with her and I should call her. A couple hours later during a break, I did call her. She was glad I called and said she was admitted to the hospital and still there; a lot of tests had been run and no diagnosis had yet been made. When I reported this to the MD, he was visibly surprised, but then began ranting again! I was shocked and dismayed. Again, he didn't ask how the patient was doing. If the hospital admitted her, this clearly was not a trivial issue.

My school taught us to trust the patient and their family if they felt something was seriously wrong, and also to trust our own gut. This is because a toddler had died in that hospital when staff ignored the mother's conviction that something was seriously wrong with her child, prompting a vigorous quality improvement program for the hospital and associated schools.

I feel I did the right thing, but was very upset by this MD's attitude. If the roles had been reversed, my first concern would have been for the patient. Is his attitude common?

There are a couple of important lessons here, and you have nothing to feel bad about.

1. Novice providers (whether they are MD or DO or NP or PA) all over-refer and over-order when they enter practice (or at least we hope they do): this hones clinical judgement. We all learn from our patient experiences and their outcomes, this is the basis of self-reflective practice. A few years into practice and you will be ordering and referring less; sometimes experienced providers forget this.

2. Many providers default into self-preservation mode when this think they missed something. I'm not sure if it has happened to you yet, but there will be a time where you have just seen a patient and the next day that patient ends up admitted or in the ED or (worst-off) dead, and you will get a feeling in your guy about your role in it. There is some natural response to try and rationalize that you didn't make a mistake or miss something. I suspect that what this MD was doing.

3. Did the patient need to be in the ED or admitted? Maybe, maybe not, it doesn't really matter. There was a clinical presentation you weren't comfortable with and you sent the patient for further eval: this is good practice. Are LFTs in the 2xULN an emergency? No, but you can't make decisions in a vacuum, it takes your assessment of the patient. You can follow this patient's admission, see what else was ordered, and then adjust your practice accordingly for the next patient you see with similar presentation.

Specializes in Adult Primary Care.

BostonFNP you are so right!!!! The first year I worked I think half of my orders in the hospital were canceled by the MD!!! If I had a dime for every time I was asked "why did you order the test and what are you going to do with the results?" (in a very constructive / teaching manner). When I look back I am amazed at how much I learned in that first year. I ask myself that same question when I'm having trouble making a decision.

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