NP's calling themselves MD's

RN1980 · May 17, 2008

we had this same issue come up in our hospital a few yrs ago, so now only md/do personel are adressed as doctor within the hospital. it upset and hurt some feeling of a few np's and even our assistant don who has a doctrate, but it cleared things up.

RheatherN, ASN, RN, EMT-P · May 17, 2008

b4 i nsg school, NOW A GRAD!!! WHOOHOOO.. sorry, had to add that.. i worked with and NP for 6 yrs, she was great and would never think of doing such a thing...i would REPORT IT! thats wrong!

shelly304 · May 17, 2008

Neither the NP or PA I am refering to have their PhD. They both do intro themselves as DR. and also when on the phone and in public. I guess it is just my "peeve"! Also, I did not know that there was another thread on the same subject or I would have refered to that. After being blasted by a long-time pt. (who also socializes with the NP) I guess I was just at my wits end yesterday. The pt. was defending the NP by saying "how dare you call her "Miss Smith" when she is "Dr. Smith" and worked very hard to get thru med school." She did work VERY hard... to obtain her NP. I totally admire her for that.

On a funny note, my husband holds a Juris Doctorate. Whenever anyone refers to him as "Dr. Jones" he says looks around to see who they are speaking to!:yeah:Thanks for all the input! You guys are great!

allnurses Guide · May 17, 2008

I have to echo what Trauma and scribbler has said, I am a NP in the UK, I introduce myself and a nurse practitioner and I wear a nurses uniform but despite that there are some patients that call me doc.

The last time I was in work I was introduced to one of my patients family members as the lovely doc who has taken good care of me, I say Mrs XXXXX I am a nurse practitioner and she tells me don't me silly dear you know what I mean.

You get patients who do that, they see the role that the ANP perform as one traditionally performed by the MD's so the group us into that group of professional.

I guess what I am getting to is it may be that this NP has corrected the patient on numerous occasions, heaven knows there are some that I have, and it is easier to just shrug and carry on.

I don't think that this is misrepresenting myself.

Larry77, RN · May 17, 2008

I think you might be confusing Physician Assistants and Medical Assistants.:) A PA practices at a similar level to a Nurse Practitioner, generally with a Masters Degree. An MA practices at a similar level to Nursing Assistant, no degree needed.

Where I'm from PA's do not have a master's degree it is similar to the 28 month program she mentioned. It takes an associates degree to get in, some I've met were even RN's when they started the program.

An MA is usually a 1 year program with no prereq's whereas a Nursing assistant is a few weeks.

A NP actually is a master's level trained provider and has many more years of schooling than a PA so please don't confuse that....thanks.

justme1972 · May 17, 2008

Neither the NP or PA I am refering to have their PhD. They both do intro themselves as DR. and also when on the phone and in public. I guess it is just my "peeve"! Also, I did not know that there was another thread on the same subject or I would have refered to that. After being blasted by a long-time pt. (who also socializes with the NP) I guess I was just at my wits end yesterday. The pt. was defending the NP by saying "how dare you call her "Miss Smith" when she is "Dr. Smith" and worked very hard to get thru med school." She did work VERY hard... to obtain her NP. I totally admire her for that.
On a funny note, my husband holds a Juris Doctorate. Whenever anyone refers to him as "Dr. Jones" he says looks around to see who they are speaking to!:yeah:Thanks for all the input! You guys are great!

The American Bar Association has made the choice to NOT make it a common practice to refer to attorney's as "Doctor".

I'm assuming that your husband is a member of the bar...if you want to know why, that's why. The would be going against every member of his profession if that were the case.

But we aren't talking about the practice of law, we are talking about healthcare...nowhere does it say that only MD's and DO's have the exclusive right to call themselves "Doctor".

It is a LEGAL term and if you have obtained that degree, then you have the right to use that title, unless your professional organization, which permits you to practice, states otherwise.

Just because the public needs education doesn't mean that NP's should hide their level of education.

I fully plan to get my DNP...and either I get to use the title "Doctor" after 7 years of school or I will be finding another place to work. As long as you don't let the public assume, and introduce yourself as, "I'm Dr. Smith, and I am your nurse practitioner."

To me, that is all that is needed to clear the air. If people don't listen, that isn't the practioner's problem.

The only people that tend to have a major issue with it is physician's themselves, who are too arrogant and self-centered to share the title with anyone else.

PS: NP's normally do not receive a PhD...that is a degree of philosphy. Most NP's that have a doctorate have a doctorate in NURSING. In Tennesse...ALL of the Master's level NP programs are being moved to DNP-ONLY programs.

justme1972 · May 17, 2008

This is a Wikipedia article that describes specifically why the term is not used in the law profession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_(title)

It also appears that in aquiring a JD degree, no research or dissertation is required...which is another reason why they do not engage in the practice, while DNP's ARE required to do a dissertation and get it published.

It also appears that there is a HIGHER degree than a JD that does require a dissertation called the S.J.D. degree which is the "Doctor of the Science of Law"

MD, DO, and DNP's are TERMINAL doctorate programs...which means, that once you have obtained that degree, there is nothing considered "higher". That isn't true in the practice of law...b/c within the profession, the S.J.D. degree IS considered a higher degree than the JD, and those that have obtained the S.J.D. degree are commonly referred to as "doctor" in their title.

I would wager that within the profession, they are wanting to make this distinction.

TiredMD · May 17, 2008

Where I'm from PA's do not have a master's degree it is similar to the 28 month program she mentioned. It takes an associates degree to get in, some I've met were even RN's when they started the program.
An MA is usually a 1 year program with no prereq's whereas a Nursing assistant is a few weeks.
A NP actually is a master's level trained provider and has many more years of schooling than a PA so please don't confuse that....thanks.

I think you're mostly wrong about this, but I'll leave the issue to core0, who knows far more about it than I.

I had a PA once mislead me about their qualifications. I was a medical student, and ended up in a General Surgery Clinic for a minor issue. The nurse comes into the room and says, "Dr. Smith is on his way in right now" and right behind her comes a gentleman wearing scrubs and no name tag. No introduction, just launches into the H&P. Ends up scheduling me for a minor procedure. On my way out I get my paperwork, and at the end is signed "John Smith, PA-C".

Needless to say I canceled the procedure immediately. I would have happily had him do it, had he been up front about his degree. But anyone who allows themselves to be introduced with a title that misleads the patient is not someone I want taking care of me, much less cutting me open.

I think it's funny that on a nursing board where people are rightfully protective of the hard-earned title "Nurse" there could be NPs who feel like it's okay to introduce themselves as "Doctor" knowing full-well that most patients will not understand what the qualifier "Nurse Practitioner" means. How about if I were a CNA who introduced himself as "Nurse Tired, your Patient Care Assistant"? Would it be okay to use "Nurse" that way, since I explained it?

Tell me, will these NPs also wear a long white coat, hang a stethoscope around their neck, and have "Dr. ______" embroidered on their coats? Bet you they do.

Don't worry, I don't find this offensive, but I do find it amusing that there are a minority of NPs and PAs out there who dress up like physicians, act like physicians, and use the title of "Doctor" with patients, then get all huffy and self-righteous when people ask why they're trying to mislead patients into thinking that they are physicians. Who are you trying to fool? Certainly not physicians, who just roll their eyes. And certainly not RNs, who see right through you and laugh at your pretentiousness when you're not around.

Even better, now a handful of Ivory Tower nursing school instructors manufacture a "doctorate" degree that is substantially shorter and has fewer requirements than any real PhD in other field, all so you can change how you introduce yourself. No doubt there will soon be many more DNPs than nursing PhDs, since the PhD is so much longer and harder to actually get . . .

I guess the problem of people trying to inflate their own self-esteem by misleading others happens in every field. I know it happens in medicine. Every year there is some medical student who gets caught introducing themselves as "Doctor". Or an intern who refers to himself as "Resident". Of course, in medicine we crush these people. Utterly and completely.

Physicians are too lax on the PAs who do this. And I think that nursing is too lax on the NPs as well.

kakamegamama · May 17, 2008

Thanks, Tired MD. I agree with a lot of what you say. I have a PhD (higher Ed., actually) and a MS-Nursing. I currently work in a country that when I am introduced to the medical community they have no clue what a PhD as a R.N. means, and nurses here may be the equivalent of aides stateside, if even that. I've been told by medical professionals who are expats to allow myself to be introduced as "Dr. Smith" & to just let the locals assume I'm a MD. I just can't do that, and I often find myself in such a dilemma. I've tried to explain to the better educated folks here that I am a 4 year degree nurse, with a a maters of nursing who also has a doctorate. Well, that's a little like explaining the theory of relativity to a 2 year old. So, when I am introduced here, they introduce me as Dr. Smith & I skirt the issue as much as possible and hope no one starts asking questions that would pin me down to trying to explain, again. Makes for some interesting conversations. And, I do seem better educated than most of the docs here, which is scary.

By the way-I should have my NP finished by 2010, I hope (if I have any brain cells left that is). I will NOT introduce myself as "Dr. Smith your doctor" to any patient I care for. I WILL introduce myself as "Susie Smith your Nurse Practitioner". Why can't people just be content to be who they are????

justme1972 · May 17, 2008

Even better, now a handful of Ivory Tower nursing school instructors manufacture a "doctorate" degree that is substantially shorter and has fewer requirements than any real PhD in other field, all so you can change how you introduce yourself. No doubt there will soon be many more DNPs than nursing PhDs, since the PhD is so much longer and harder to actually get .

I disagree with you 190% on two major points.

First of all, the PA that came into your room DID NOT introduce themselves at all...they just assumed that someone else had introduced them properly. To me, that is not only unethical, but unprofessional.

Don't blame all PA's for what one did.

Second of all, how much have you researched DNP programs? I would say that you haven't researched them very far.

The very reason that the NP programs are now moving toward a DNP as a minimum requirement is because the number of hours that it takes between classroom, clinicals, research and dissertation is BEYOND any other discipline in most other fields if you complete a Masters and then a Phd. So that is why many schools, for example, in Tennessee, are moving toward a BSN to DNP program.

This was specifically told to me by the Director of the NNP program at University of Tennessee College of Health Sciences in Memphis, TN when I asked why they had abandoned all of the Masters programs and moved to a DNP program only for NP's.

So for you to say that a DNP has taken some educational shortcut to obtain a degree, is simply not true.

Try researching a few colleges and add the hours up and see how long it takes....then you'll be quite enlightened to how long these programs take and what goes into them.

CHATSDALE · May 17, 2008

worked once with a nurse who was taking PA course..she said that it was the roughest class she had ever been in..she said that she and one other person in the class were nurses but that a batchlors degree was required to get in

as for them calling themselves other titles i only knew one who did that and he explained that he did that on the phone because if introduced himself as a da then the nurses would keep him on hold or they would call back later, if he introduced himself as 'dr. smith' he was put right through..still doesn't seem kosher to me

mcs1505 · May 17, 2008

Even better, now a handful of Ivory Tower nursing school instructors manufacture a "doctorate" degree that is substantially shorter and has fewer requirements than any real PhD in other field, all so you can change how you introduce yourself. No doubt there will soon be many more DNPs than nursing PhDs, since the PhD is so much longer and harder to actually get . . .

Actually PhD programs focus on nursing research and DNPs will be focusing on patient care. That's the information I've received from all the DNP programs I've researched.

Tell me, will these NPs also wear a long white coat, hang a stethoscope around their neck, and have "Dr. ______" embroidered on their coats? Bet you they do.

All of my professors, preceptors, and PCPs have had "M. Smith PhD, ARNP" etc. on their lab coats. I've yet to see anyone with "Dr." written on their coat when they weren't one. And I fail to see the problem with wearing a lab coat or a stethoscope. This isn't the 1920s, we don't wear caps and capes anymore. (much as I would really love a cape...)

In response the OP: After explaining the situation to the patient the first time, I wouldn't continue to correct them because odds are that they remember but they just don't care and you'll only aggravate them and make them more stubborn.

My last several PCPs have been NPs and PAs and I always referred to them as "doctor" because it was shorter and I wouldn't have to face all of the "why don't you see a doctor?" questions from people who think they should have some say in my medical care.

After being completely screwed over by a number of ER MDs (at different hospitals), having to have emergency surgery because multiple MDs missed an insanely obvious medical problem for 2 years, and almost dying: I refuse to see MDs if it is at all avoidable. I've found that NPs and PAs are much more likely to believe that you are in pain and more dedicated in their search to discover the cause.

(Which is precisely why I am pursuing nursing instead of a medical degree.)

*gets off of soapbox*

I won't be introducing myself as "doctor," despite getting my DNP, of course. I know the law.