No one will hire a nurse with only a Associates???

ThePrincessBride, MSN, RN, NP · Nov 22, 2011

What I find hilarious about this talk of pushing even higher education for RNs, is, the more you lay out for education in time and money (not talking about the facility laying this all out, but, THE INDIVIDUAL laying out time and money) -- The resultant feeling of being one "of higher education" and deserving of being treated as a "clinician" and being respected is also something that escalates dramatically. YET, the workplace for RNs has not risen to this level.
The higher the entrance level of education gets for RNs, the faster they will leave the profession. And NO THIS IS NOT LIKE ALL OTHER PROFESSIONS WHO REQUIRE BA OR MS AS ENTRY. Nursing is down and dirty. There is no comparable profession outside of healthcare. Those that try to say "its the same no matter what profession you enter" simply, are, either very green, or using some kind of coping mechanism (God bless them, for trying to cope).
FACT: Those who have or have had self-worth. Those who are highly educated. These people look for better life situations.

The higher the expectations/qualifications/standard, the higher the quality of people who will enter nursing. Let's face it, if nursing only required 9 months, we would have a bunch of crappy, ill-prepared nurses running around, right? The higher the standards, the more intelligent, hard working people the profession will attract. Think...med school. Sure there are a few incompetent, idiotic doctors, but let's face it: the majority of them are smart, hard working people.

opjewel · Nov 22, 2011

I feel the title of this post should have read; No one hires a nurse with "an" associate degree. typographical errors!

netglow, ASN, RN · Nov 22, 2011

Well sure Princess, while the world is simple.

You just began nursing school, and all you have behind you is high school. Spend some time taking all of this in and as you move along in school and life some of what's said here is going to click.

Rob72, ASN, RN · Nov 22, 2011

Has it occurred to anyone that this school counselor might actually know what they're talking about?

Working for a State University(with a BSN program), and having recently completed my ADN, I can say the counsellor knows exactly what he/she is talking about- tuition for the school. Period. That's it. End of story.

Nursing is a highly profitable curriculum. Multiple students repeating semesters, taking "refresher" courses to pass NCLEX, lab fees, internship/clinical fees. There are not many other programs that offer this potential for revenue from a single student (note- I did not say "graduate", since that's another important source).

Hiring opportunities vary widely by region (as noted), but remember, like a realtor working for the seller, counsellors may not have your best interests at heart.

DizzyLizzyNurse · Nov 22, 2011

The higher the expectations/qualifications/standard, the higher the quality of people who will enter nursing. Let's face it, if nursing only required 9 months, we would have a bunch of crappy, ill-prepared nurses running around, right? The higher the standards, the more intelligent, hard working people the profession will attract. Think...med school. Sure there are a few incompetent, idiotic doctors, but let's face it: the majority of them are smart, hard working people.

Um just wanted to say my LPN school was 9 months long. 40 hours a week for school, but only 9 months long.... Of course it's not an ADN but I just wanted to throw that in there.

luv4nursing · Nov 22, 2011

Well if Nursing wants to be taken seriously, it needs to raise the standards from a two year degree to a four year degree for entry level. Think about it. How many accountants and Engineers are walking around with only a two-year degree? Not too many, yet they are taken very seriously.
Having a four year degree as a prerequisite to entering the nursing profession would weed out those who are only in it for a quick buck (because let's face it 2/3 years isn't as much as a 4/5 year commitment, is it?).
I was talking to a woman who has her master's in another field, and she vocalized to me how unsettling it is that nurses can work on people having only a two year degree and having someone's life in their hands. I thought that was an interesting perspective, especially since she is very educated.

Just think, LPNs are nurses too and they only have 1 year of training....and believe it or not there are LPNs who can run circles around BSN grads as far as skills, knowledge, and experience.

Ill be curious as to how this pans out over the years....it could turn out to be like the Hospitals phasing out LPNs thing....every so many years they say they are phasing them out (or forcing them to go back for their RN or leave), get rid of them all....then a few years later they hire them again. Its happened numerous times, but never really stuck. I sort of get the feeling this may be the case with ASN vs BSN.

I have lived in FL, GA, and TN over the past 5 years and havent had an issue with being an ASN and getting a job. I am going back for my BSN in January, simply because I want to go back for my MSN in midwifery eventually. A BSN itself doesnt seem to serve any purpose for me other than a stepping stone to my MSN, since I have zero desire to work in management.

Rob72, ASN, RN · Nov 22, 2011

The higher the expectations/qualifications/standard, the higher the quality of people who will enter nursing.

That is a false premise. One needs to define the "standards" before making that statement. With all due respect to those who have attained BS/BSN, I submit that a majority(based on the number of BS grads across all disciplines) are quite commonly lacking in logic, rhetoric, basic grammar, integrational thinking and heuristic reasoning. If BSN programs were instilling these arts, Nursing would not be suffering the identity crisis we currently have.

Let's face it, if nursing only required 9 months, we would have a bunch of crappy, ill-prepared nurses running around, right? The higher the standards, the more intelligent, hard working people the profession will attract. Think...med school. Sure there are a few incompetent, idiotic doctors, but let's face it: the majority of them are smart, hard working people.

Current standards mean that those of reasonable intelligence, and more than average income (or more than average loans/grants) will pass. Maintaining current educational standards, but requiring a BSN is simply making employment a "pay-to-play" affair. This is how the Communist culture worked (failed to work) for 50 years.

Schools are actively denying IQ, i.e., we now have "emotional intlligence", "artistic intelligence", "empathetic intelligence". This is nice, and makes everyone feel good, but if the reality is that many nurses below MSN have difficulty formulating a cogent 1 pages thesis, the standards are pretty damn low.

If we want to, "raise professional standards", mandating an IQ of >100, as demonstrated by standardized testing would be a much greater step. The obvious difficulty is that this means that not everyone can, "be whatever you dream to be..." Got news kids. That was crap when your parents were paying to send you to public school. Its crap when other taxpayers are funding Fannie & Freddie so you can go to college.

In 1900, if one graduated from University(2 years), one could generally speak at least 2 languages, calculate in calculus, trig, organic chemistry, be conversant in botany, zoology, economics- then whatever field of specilization one sought. Show me a BSN program with grads at that level, and I'll listen, otherwise, its politics and economics.

noc4senuf · Nov 22, 2011

I have worked with both ADN's and BS nurses over the years. If they are new grads, then the ADN has more clinical experience under the belt at time of graduation vs the BS grad having mainly theory classes and their clinicals were more observation than hands on. I am a Director of Nursing in LTC for 12 years now. I have a ADN. I am also certified in MDS 3.0, WCC, on the steering committee for having written a 3 yr grant with our state to increase our reimbursement rates, completed another grant 2 years ago, now starting the application process for bundling payments with CMS at the federal level.

Now, tell me why some people believe a nurse has to have a BS in order to perform their job better.

nyrn5125 · Nov 22, 2011

Well if Nursing wants to be taken seriously, it needs to raise the standards from a two year degree to a four year degree for entry level. Think about it. How many accountants and Engineers are walking around with only a two-year degree? Not too many, yet they are taken very seriously.
Having a four year degree as a prerequisite to entering the nursing profession would weed out those who are only in it for a quick buck (because let's face it 2/3 years isn't as much as a 4/5 year commitment, is it?).
I was talking to a woman who has her master's in another field, and she vocalized to me how unsettling it is that nurses can work on people having only a two year degree and having someone's life in their hands. I thought that was an interesting perspective, especially since she is very educated.

As a clinical nurse working directly with pt in a stepdown unit I can tell you that what you are saying is only a dream. Wait until you get that masters and still work at the bedside doing the RN,aide,housekeeper,dietary job all the while not making any more money and see if you still agree. I work along side a few NP that have chosen to stay where they are. Do you think they are looked at any different by the patients or physicians? Do you think they are any more respected than me. They still bed bath,they toilet, get coffee, get chairs for visitors. You can't compare nursing to accounting

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Nov 22, 2011

The higher the expectations/qualifications/standard, the higher the quality of people who will enter nursing. Let's face it, if nursing only required 9 months, we would have a bunch of crappy, ill-prepared nurses running around, right? The higher the standards, the more intelligent, hard working people the profession will attract. Think...med school. Sure there are a few incompetent, idiotic doctors, but let's face it: the majority of them are smart, hard working people.

So your predecessors in nursing were unintillegent, lazy, ill-prepared underachievers???? :idea:

fiveofpeep · Nov 22, 2011

That is a false premise. One needs to define the "standards" before making that statement. With all due respect to those who have attained BS/BSN, I submit that a majority(based on the number of BS grads across all disciplines) are quite commonly lacking in logic, rhetoric, basic grammar, integrational thinking and heuristic reasoning. If BSN programs were instilling these arts, Nursing would not be suffering the identity crisis we currently have.
Current standards mean that those of reasonable intelligence, and more than average income (or more than average loans/grants) will pass. Maintaining current educational standards, but requiring a BSN is simply making employment a "pay-to-play" affair. This is how the Communist culture worked (failed to work) for 50 years.
Schools are actively denying IQ, i.e., we now have "emotional intlligence", "artistic intelligence", "empathetic intelligence". This is nice, and makes everyone feel good, but if the reality is that many nurses below MSN have difficulty formulating a cogent 1 pages thesis, the standards are pretty damn low.
If we want to, "raise professional standards", mandating an IQ of >100, as demonstrated by standardized testing would be a much greater step. The obvious difficulty is that this means that not everyone can, "be whatever you dream to be..." Got news kids. That was crap when your parents were paying to send you to public school. Its crap when other taxpayers are funding Fannie & Freddie so you can go to college.
In 1900, if one graduated from University(2 years), one could generally speak at least 2 languages, calculate in calculus, trig, organic chemistry, be conversant in botany, zoology, economics- then whatever field of specilization one sought. Show me a BSN program with grads at that level, and I'll listen, otherwise, its politics and economics.

There are so many things wrong with this post, I don't know where to start. It must have something to do with my insufficient IQ...

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Nov 22, 2011

That is a false premise. One needs to define the "standards" before making that statement. With all due respect to those who have attained BS/BSN, I submit that a majority(based on the number of BS grads across all disciplines) are quite commonly lacking in logic, rhetoric, basic grammar, integrational thinking and heuristic reasoning. If BSN programs were instilling these arts, Nursing would not be suffering the identity crisis we currently have.
Current standards mean that those of reasonable intelligence, and more than average income (or more than average loans/grants) will pass. Maintaining current educational standards, but requiring a BSN is simply making employment a "pay-to-play" affair. This is how the Communist culture worked (failed to work) for 50 years.
Schools are actively denying IQ, i.e., we now have "emotional intlligence", "artistic intelligence", "empathetic intelligence". This is nice, and makes everyone feel good, but if the reality is that many nurses below MSN have difficulty formulating a cogent 1 pages thesis, the standards are pretty damn low.
If we want to, "raise professional standards", mandating an IQ of >100, as demonstrated by standardized testing would be a much greater step. The obvious difficulty is that this means that not everyone can, "be whatever you dream to be..." Got news kids. That was crap when your parents were paying to send you to public school. Its crap when other taxpayers are funding Fannie & Freddie so you can go to college.
In 1900, if one graduated from University(2 years), one could generally speak at least 2 languages, calculate in calculus, trig, organic chemistry, be conversant in botany, zoology, economics- then whatever field of specilization one sought. Show me a BSN program with grads at that level, and I'll listen, otherwise, its politics and economics.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: Well said