New Grad student, need advice, should I switch programs? Problems with advisor already...

[reluctantrn]

Dear Nurses,

For those of you who have successfully made it through graduate school, I am hoping you can provide me with some much needed advice from your own experiences.

I am in the first semester of a RN/MSN program. My advisor is also the department head and I believe she may have narcissistic personality disorder. I have become a target of her abuse, and I fear potentially a smear campaign behind my back. She has made several mistakes thus far, in regard to my transcripts and various other responsibilities that fall under her jurisdiction. In order to move forward, I had to address these. For example, I had no choice but to have several classes transferred in that she had 'missed' or I would have needed to attend an extra semester. I will not go into all the details because they are not important. Basically, as a narcissist, she has taken my reasonable actions, such as contacting the office of transfer credits, in a professional and non-accusatory way, as a 'slight' to herself. I could provide many examples but you get the picture, it is not an isolated event.

Long story short, she hates me and very much wants to get me alone, I suspect so that she can maintain control and/or perhaps verbally abuse me with no witnesses. She has already used this tactic to 'gaslight' me. Saying that she never told me important information that she did, or saying that I did not tell her things that I did, such as having taken certain classes. She now refuses to advise me in a way that would allow me a record of what happened. No recorders, no email, etc. She has also refused to reassign me to another advisor, despite my have numerous valid reason's for such a request.

Since I am in the first semester, I am trying to decide if I should withdraw from the program and go elsewhere. This will, of course, add time onto my education. I also have no guarantee that I will be accepted into a masters program elsewhere. If I do stay, it will mean at this point having to meet with the dean. Which I fear will lead me to be labeled and that I will be in emotional distress the entire program, fearing that I will be treated harshly in the future. As if at any point, the rug could be pulled out from under me.

I am an emotional wreck right now. I know how nursing school is, but this woman is a bully, not just strict. And, she is the department head. I hope that those of you who have passed before me can offer some insight into what the best decision would be. Has anyone else faced issue such as this? If so, were you able to resolve them in a positive manner? And how? If you were not able to resolve them in a positive manner, what did you do in the end?

Thank you all so much for your time.

[billybulldog]

Leave. Battles with nursing school directors and administrators usually never end well for the student. I have a friend who graduated at the head of his class from a top law school. He owns his own law firm who has tried cases like these with no success. He says you are paying money to be treated like a slave. I won my battle with a tyrannical clinical instructor because she did not follow written university protocol, so I basically got off on a technicality even after this woman was changing signed clinical evaluations. If you do decide to fight you need to document everything, right down to the page in the student handbook where you are quoting the rule she violated. Get it in writing. Insist on your right (quoting your source, of course!) to be advised via email. Your feelings have no place whatsoever in these proceedings. If you're going to get angry or cry or show emotion in any way you are DONE. And don't expect the dean of the nursing program to be fair either, it won't be till you get to the dean of your school's college of health professions or for the entire university that you will have a chance of getting a fair hearing.

I am very sorry you are going through this. I went through it and it was awful even though I won. I wish you the best in dealing with this & hope it ends well for you!

[reluctantrn]

Dear BillyBullDog,

I'm sorry YOU had to go through it as well, especially in clinical. You had more time in than I do. Aside from all those years of obtaining my associates degree, which is worthless now. I took time off to stay home with my children, the shame of it! Oh well, I hated nursing as a RN anyway and would only re-enter it at a FNP level.

I do plan on going to the president. I also know many professors at this university (Outside nursing) and they are pissed! I hope the whole thing comes back to haunt them (the nursing dept that is). Because of certain circumstances, I have a great deal of validation on my side outside of the nursing program, and they plan on letting the president know what is happening over there. The look on his face, when he see's the emails where this woman is putting down online communication at an online school alone would be priceless.

As much as I hate to do it, I think I am going to change majors and just get my degree in teaching science. They *say* there is a need for science teachers and I have many of the classes already done. I'm just concerned about finding a job after graduation, which is the only thing causing me to hesitate. We want to live in a very specific rural area and there may not be too many jobs. Oh well, with a RN license (which I plan on keeping active) and a degree in education with a focus on science, I hope I can find something. And, the pay may not be as good BUT I will have summers off and I won't have to be abused like this. I know teachers suffer abuse and I know it is a hard job but, they do get to eat, drink, and pee. No one is going to die, and they are not subject to forced overtime and the threat of lawsuits every day of their lives.

I did look up the law and you are right, these are hard cases to win. It is too subjective. The only case I may have is that of a tort case because she broke the contract by not advising me via email and she enrolled me in the wrong class (by mistake of course) causing me undue distress, money, and adding time onto my education. Academic advisors are actually a bit more 'open' to lawsuits for things like this. If I have time I may check into it and see if there is anything that can be done. Not for damages but to have her fired, again, so the cycle of abuse may stop. I bet that if she were fired and the university suffered bad press, then the nursing department may think twice about behaving this way. Sadly, they have to be punished rather than just realizing that it is wrong to abuse.

What kind of lawyer is your friend? I have no idea in regard to what kind of lawyer I would even talk with, if I do talk with one at all. Right now, I have to survive this semester and enroll somewhere else.

Thank you for helping. I appreciate your advice.

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

Ok, so first off, these are online courses. Why is it that you have to meet with her at all? I have a hard time following that. Additionally, YOU PAY for an education. They do not pay you to attend. So I would circumvent all of this stuff and go straight to your guidance counselor. Tell the guidance counselor that you have had a change of thought process, and you would like to get your bachelors in teaching/education instead. See if you have to do a couple of summer courses to get you to a bachelors in education degree, even with a minor in science.

Then, you can start looking for a job (and some private schools will take a bachelors degree in education, public schools usually want you to have a masters in a set time period) and do online Masters in education, hybrid program, summer program whatever.

You owe this advisor NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH. She doesn't control your life, nor your decisions. I would say that she more than likely is not mentally ill, just a really, really sly business person ie: "Yada, Yada, nursing theory whatever, you suck at this so you need a redo, that will be $2,000.00 please....."

Withdraw from the program, and move on. If she tries to contact you once you do that, then that is a story for another thread, and cross that if it ever comes to that.

Whether she has a mental health issue or not, you can not let it control what you, as an adult and tuition paying student decides to do or not do. She doesn't need to rent space in your head. There are many, many administrators who (in higher education AND facilities) who are interested in the bottom line.

If that means manipulating students to have to spend more tuition money, or hiring for a facility at the lowest salary for the highest ratios, they will. To find out down the line that she is an MBA with a decades old nursing degree should not shock you.

Her goal is to make students pay more in retakes, additional courses, and I bet the farm some sort of "how to succeed" garbage electives that aren't really electives at all, but will "help" you to "succeed" to "stay in the program".

STOP drinking the koolaid. Make a choice about what you want to do. If it is to continue to a master's program, get your BSN first. OR change it up now and get your education degree. Then, start thinking about GRE's and master's programs. There's a zillion of them online and otherwise that may not require GRE's, but they are there. Is there a short term goal that you are attempting to accomplish that you need a masters right away?

Finally, remember, this is a business to this "advisor". They are making money on you and everyone else in the program. That they can manipulate you into believing that you are not succeeding as you should be therefore, need to retake, doubt yourself into whatever means dollars for them. And universities (especially the for profit variety) support and reward advisors who bring in more money (which you will absolutely find in the business of healthcare as well).

Cut your losses once you are bachelor's prepared and move on. The drama is far too high school musical to spend one second fearing your advisor. That you pay. She doesn't pay you. Remember that and proceed accordingly.

[Nonyvole, BSN, RN]

OP, you're right. There is always a need for STEM teachers. However, should you choose that route, don't fixate on just finding a job in a school - also look at museums and their education departments.

[EmergencyRN22]

If you feel you have no option but to "fight", you've already made up your mind.

You have some good advice here from others but you keep turning it down.

Sorry if I'm wrong but this whole thread seems sooooo dramatic with you being the martyr.

I'm visioning an old silent film with young lady fainting with the back of her hand to her head with very dramatic background music. Haha

[reluctantrn]

WOW! Nonyvole,

I have never thought of that. THANK YOU for such an amazing idea! I have a very close friend that is the head curator at a large museum in a fantastic location as well. I will absolutely look into that! You have given me SO much hope! I would MUCH rather work at a museum than a hospital. I goto the museum to relax and enjoy life. The hospital, not so much.

I can't thank you enough. Hugs to you! Thanks for taking the time to make a strangers life better!

[reluctantrn]

Dear EmergencyRN22,

I'm not sure why you think I have no option but to 'fight'. In fact, I thought I had made it clear that I have decided NOT to fight. I'm leaving the department, and looking into education as an alternative.

Perhaps you mistook something because I said that I did have to fight this 'one' battle. My reason for doing so is related to financial aid. Without it, I could not go to school at all.

The only other point I have made is that I will try to ensure that others do not suffer in the same way.

It is dramatic, it's my life they are messing with, my future, my kids future's and how I will put food on the table. And it very well may look like I am being a martyr. Would it be better if I were silent and allowed the cycle of abuse to continue? That mentality, in some, not all, is the very reason nurses are forced to stand by and be abused. If they speak up, they are punished.

No one wants to identify with a victim, and I hope you never have to. This thread was directed towards those who HAD been the victim, how the reacted, and what their outcome was. In order to gain insight and help me make an informed decision.

Informed decisions empower people and allow them to STOP being victims. I do not want to be a victim and I do not want to be a martyr.

I will use the kind, wise, and incredibly helpful information others have been loving enough to offer, in order to stop being a victim (Indeed, my whole point was, if I stay, will I continue to be a victim of abuse).

I will not be a martyr BUT I will use my experience to try to create something positive for others. In this way, a sh*t situation can be made into a positive one. If I help others to not suffer abuse, then I feel that my negative experience had some positive results in the world--leaving it a better place and allowing me to feel as if it was not all for nothing.

If for some reason you take offense, you are welcome to your opinion. If YOU happen to like drama, then by all means keep reading and keep posting, blast me, I could care less.

Otherwise, no one is making you take time out of your life to read and/or post here.

To everyone else, I am listening to your advice, and I appreciate it more than you know. I have agreed with many and I have taken your advice. I am withdrawing. To the few that I have explained why their solutions may not work in this case, I hope you understand. If I had posted every detail and explained narcissism in detail, my post would have been so long no one would have read it.

Still, I DO appreciate that you tried to offer solutions and I have learned something from you all that is helping me.

EmergencyRN22 is a classic example of issues nurses face. Abused? Take it! If you speak up, you are a martyr. Of course we feel dramatic and upset when we are being abused. This is a normal human feeling. EmergencyRN22's post is nothing but additional abuse and a classic example of how the cycle continues.

[EmergencyRN22]

Lol sorry if you think I'm abusing you. Just stating that it seems like you know your options. Like I said earlier, pick your battles wisely.

You also stated earlier that you disliked being a nurse at the "rn" level but would rather reenter as an NP...why the dislike? Serious question.

Oh, and I'm going to ignore the state about how I let the cycle of "abuse" continue.

Many times, it's better just to bite your tongue and move on. Other that instant personal gratification - usually nothing good comes from it. Perhaps it's just a personality clash? It happens.

If you do feel the need to pursue, definitely go above her head. However, don't expect for her NOT to be bias against you if you remain in the program. Ideally she wouldn't hold a grudge, but some of nursing school/grad school IS subjective...HER subjective. Also, many of the "higher ups" in education know MANY managers and DON's. Heck, that's how I was offered my first FT RN job, our department head called her friend (manager) at the local ER and told her about me. I didn't even have an interview, just told a date for orientation.

Personally, I'd just transfer schools or you mentioned going into teaching instead. I'd rather not risk the future wellbeing and ability to provide for my family because I clash with director head.

oh, perhaps journalism may be up your alley as well.

Anyways, good luck.

[reluctantrn]

Ok EmergencyRN22, truce. Online communication only allows for verbal communication and a lot is left out. You crack me up, in a good way, I mean that as no insult. Journalism huh? I wonder why? Not my flair for the dramatic, is it? No couldn't be. (laughs at self) I do have a drama queen streak, I suck in nursing because of it, I have a big mouth. My preceptor, whom I love and is one of my best friends from years ago, calls me "the truth teller". We appreciate one another's idiosyncrasies though and draw support from each others strengths. I will do the same with you.

Seriously though? Why did I hate being a nurse at the RN level? Let's see, I'll be a broken record for a moment.

For starters, no time to eat, drink, or pee. It was so bad that at one point there were seven of us that happened to be pregnant at the same time. No matter how pregnant we were, there were no accommodations available and the way the floor was laid out (like a U shape) we had to walk 1/4 of a mile from one end to the other. I was dying, swelled ankles, tachycardia, you name it. I hung in there UNTIL, one nurse LOST HER BABY because she became so dehydrated. She was stuck in the newborn nursery for 12 hours with no break because we were so busy that night. Tons of sick newborns that needed I.V's and what not and just her. She became so dehydrated that her baby suffered cord compression and died. I left.

Another reason, forced overtime.

Another, the facility constantly forcing nurses to take obscene patient loads, sometimes twice what the state mandated.

Another, no support when things became crazy. Everyone was too busy to help, regardless of the level of emergency.

Another, poor training (my preceptor in L and D left to attend college full time to get her nurse midwifery degree TWO weeks after I started and they never gave me another one--I was fresh out of school and had two weeks training in a specialty).

Another, poor management. Managers who would sit in their office (and once literally paint their nails) while we were DYING--full rooms, full triage, people in labor in the waiting room...

Let's see, another, reviewing other nurses charting within my same department. Really? Do I want to correct my friend and/or colleague? And especially, do I want to do so off the clock? We were too busy to do this during our shifts so we all ended up clocking out and doing it on our own dime.

Another? NEVER BEING HEARD! "Hey Doc. , this patient just ruptured her uterus"...(Doc yells at me) "What! Non-sense, you have no idea what you are talking about"! A few minutes later, "WE HAVE TO GOTO THE OR RIGHT NOW, THIS PATIENT'S UTERUS HAS RUPTURED". Or, "Hey Doc., this patients placenta just abrupted" (Different Doc, Yells at me also) "What, no way, I don't think so" When the baby comes out...Doc says, "Hey, will ya look at that! This patient had an occult abruption" and so on...over and over. NEVER, did a doc say "hey you were right, sorry I yelled at you", or anything. Only validation I ever got was when I ran into a resident at a bar and they told me they thought I was amazing. At a bar, not to my peers, or my manager. At a bar.

Do you want me to go on? Because I could but I bet you get it.

As a NP, I had a career plan because I have friends (doc's, NP's, midwives) that I could work with and/or for. Believe me, after some of the horrors I experienced I researched the dickens out of being a NP and everyone I spoke with said they were FAR more happy, less stressed, and felt as if they were actually making the world a better place that they did as a RN.

I have no intention of staying in the area so any connections she may have are useless to me.

But, I am not going to fight. If I did, there would be a darn good chance that in the future, she would get me on the more subjective grading and then I would have invested too much. Even if she didn't, I would live in utter terror until I graduated, and I am just starting. Your right, I have too much at risk.

In walking away right now, I also am able to expose her immediately, to the higher up's AND more importantly, rid myself of the emotional turmoil now, rather than allowing it to continue and graduating with my FNP + PTSD.

I hope I have answered your question, and I hope we can understand one another better. Also, I do appreciate when someone calls me on my sh*t, so thank you. We can learn as much, if not more, from those who disagree with us as we can from those who do agree with us. AND it does not mean we are enemies, just that we agree to disagree. If this were not true, we would have no such thing as 'family'. Ha..

[Conqueror+, BSN, RN]

Been there. Went through that very thing 20+ years ago. 96 average in classes including sim labs. She made it no secret that she hated me. Suddenly we get to clinicals and I flunk the FIRST DAY. When I tried to transfer to another program (this was a program run by the state so all 4 sites in my county ran on an identical schedule and curriculum) to avoid graduating late, she actually took my file from the admin office and put it in her office. I was blessed with her two week vacation and a temp secretary who wasn't aware of the drama. I did the transfer paperwork, told the secretary that my file was probably in her office because I needed counseling on clinicals, she went in and got it, faxed what I needed to the new school, and placed it back in her office at my suggestion. By the time she came looking for me I had already started at the new site and my graduation was only delayed by 9 weeks. Be smart, quiet, and purposeful.

[reluctantrn]

Dear Conqueror,

I'm so sorry that you had to go through that. It must have been awful. You had a fantastic average, at 96. I have a good GPA but they are ruining that, the more classes I take, the more risk to my GPA.

You are smart and wise, to have figured out that she had your file in her office and when she was on holiday. I'm guessing that was also partly due to you knowing people since you had been there for some time at that point (knowing when she was on vacation).

Your also very lucky that you were able to get into another program with the same courses/clinical. I am not in such a situation. Everyone I know, outside of nursing, is saying I should talk with the dean...then the dean's boss...etc and on up the line, until someone listens.

I will, but I still don't feel comfortable in the situation for the EXACT reason you have. I know that even if the president of the college himself ordered her to treat me equally and fairly, that those 'subjective' clinical grades are coming and I will have nothing but my word, no record...nothing.

Since the area and program I am in are quite different from yours, there is no way I could do what you did--even if I were smart enough to figure it out! I could not just switch programs because each school requires different pre-req's and so on. Also, we are only allowed to transfer a maximum of 6 or 9 nursing credits into any school. So, I would lose all the work I had done and may not be eligible for financial aid because I would have too many credit hours overall.

Basically, I wish I could take the risk that you did, but the situation does not allow for it. We all (us nurses) know nursing school is 'different' from other programs.

Thank you for letting me know what happened to you. It confirms my worst fears. I have been trying to explain that to my hubby/friends that are not nurses. They don't understand how clinical works, so it is hard for them to 'get' how we can be failed and kicked out of the program so easily.

It is kinda hard to believe. It's awful. NO other college program, especially for adult learners, treats students this way and gets away with it.

I'm meeting with the dean of academic affairs, speaking with the ombudsman, meeting with the dean of nursing, I already spoke with the dean of another department (a friend) to get their advice--and it has helped, and when all is said and done, I will meet with the president so I can tell them what is happening.

I'm not being closed minded, I would love for one of these people to surprise me, but I have surrendered to the fact that I will most likely be leaving. So, basically, I am meeting them as a kind of 'exit' interview. This mentality allows me to say the whole truth and nothing but the truth...because in my mind the worst has already happened.

If my mentality were that of trying to stay in the program, I would feel that I needed to be cautious about what I told them. Basically because the advisor/dept. head's behavior has been so over the top that when it is all laid out, it just looks crazy. If I were planning on staying, I would carefully select a few supporting points.

I know, this is the opposite of your advice to be 'quiet' but I assume you meant in order to stay in the program. I don't even want to stay in the program if I am going to be terrified the whole time.

If, when I meet with someone, they pleasantly surprise me and are able to somehow guarantee me equal treatment as my peers, then I would re-consider. But I'm not holding my breath.

She may *think* she is getting what she wants...me out of the program. But...

I will not go quietly. I have NO idea why she hates me so much, we have hardly had any interaction. So, she hates someone that she created in her mind, and she doesn't really know me at all.

If she did, she would know that I wouldn't take such abuse lying down. In the end, when all is done, I'm betting that she is going to wish she had behaved like a civil human being. Abusers get so wrapped up in their anger that they cannot think things through, they don't seem to be able to think about consequences of their behavior. If they did, it may modify their behavior. But no, the only way they 'modify' their behavior is via punishment. After some kind of punishment (be it a verbal reprimand at best or termination at worst) she may finally learn to think twice before mis-treating others.

But not in time for me. I just have to make it through this semester and figure out what I'm going to do next. Honestly, I really wanted to be a FNP but this whole thing has kinda ruined that for me. The thought of nursing school is so depressing now--because of this. I was excited on the first day, but now, every time I open a book, I just feel depressed, and terrified. I have NO idea why I feel so terrified. I'm starting to wonder if this whole thing has't lead to some kind of anxiety disorder. I'm in my 40's and I have never had an issue with depression or anxiety before this. Even when I am sleeping, I wake up in a panic--just these last two weeks.

Can I be unprofessional for a moment? And say, I hate this vile, soulless, beast of a hollow spawn of satan.

Ok, thank you. Sorry about that. I'm sure everyone that has gone through something similar (and there are plenty of us) feels the same way about the person that did bad things to them.

Hope everyone has a great day. Thank you all for sharing.

[brandy1017, ASN, RN]

From what I read in the beginning it seems you didn't handle the situation diplomatically. It is not clear if there was a misunderstanding of your credits by the advisor or a deliberate attempt to get extra tuition money from you. Both are possible explanations. Either way the best way to have handled it was to tell her you assumed she made an error and didn't see the missing classes. It seems odd how such a simple, easily fixed problem could turn into this conflict. I think you may have overreacted and escalated the situation and now have quite a mess on your hands. Of course the other staff members are going to look at you as a trouble maker, especially if this is a new conflict for this advisor ie no other similar or previous complaints.

You seem paranoid and argumentative and I wonder if you had handled this with more tact and grace or even guile by just pretending it was an innocent error even if it was a deliberate profit motive, things would not have gotten so heated to where you feel you are not being graded fairly or treated fairly. Since you are getting passing grades I would probably not withdraw this semester, just finish your classes and transfer. The problem, as you are probably well aware, is that there is not a lot of RN-MSN programs out there to choose from. Most NP programs require getting a BSN first. Even if you technically complete the BSN component of this program they aren't going to award you a BSN are they? That will make it more difficult for you to transfer schools.

That said, I don't see you being able to stay in this program with the way things are between you and the dean and the staff and concerns that you are not being graded fairly. It looks like you will have to go to school elsewhere.