My Visit to China: Could This Be A Reason Why Coronavirus Started There?
I've visited China and the wet markets where the coronavirus is believed to have started. With the conditions I saw it's not surprising that this is where the outbreak may have begun.
With all the talk about the coronavirus, I wanted to share my experiences visiting China. A few years ago I traveled to Beijing and Shanghai as a tourist. While the country is amazing and has some unbelievable attractions, it is also obvious that they are still a developing nation.
Common Local Food Options
The first difference that I noticed was the choice of food options. Although they have McDonald’s and KFC they also have some local dishes that many in America would not put on the menu. I saw whole fish with the fins and scales served on a plate, mammals I won’t mention, and snakes. The latter is at the center of coronavirus issue as it’s suggested that a bat was eaten by a snake who then was eaten by a person.
Open-Air Wet Markets
While eating odd foods isn’t a bad thing, Andrew Zimmern has made a career of it, how the food is prepped in China is an issue. While in Shanghai I visited what they call a “wet market.” Several websites are claiming the coronavirus, and previously SARS started in wet markets. Think of a farmer’s market but the butchering of the animals happens behind the counter and the raw meat is hung in the open air. Not only are they butchering pigs, ducks and chickens there are also stands with live frogs, eels, snakes and turtles. It’s not very sanitary and there are no regulations on how they discard the entrails. One moment a man could be butchering a snake, the next he could be handling a raw piece of pork before selling it to the consumer. The market was open-air even during the summer months. Raw meat sat out in 85-degree temperatures. The worst part was the unsanitary conditions. The animal waste, including feces, wasn’t discarded away from the food. I’m honestly surprised more people don’t get sick.
Human Waste Disposal
Another issue in China is how they deal with human waste. Many of the big cities are westernized when it comes to plumbing but even in cities like Beijing and Shanghai, it is not rare to come across squat toilets. The squat toilet is just what it sounds like. In nice areas, they can be made of porcelain, like the attached picture, but in many spots, they are made of metal or wood. They are essentially a hole in the floor that you squat over to do your business. Again, the sanitation of these toilets is not great, especially if the previous user was careless with their aim. Another issue with Chinese restrooms is that in most you are not allowed to flush the toilet paper. In many areas, the plumbing isn’t capable of handling the waste paper. So what do people do with the waste paper? They place it in a garbage can or open bin. And again, the sanitation varies on whether or not the previous user cared to hit the bin with their waste paper. Even in restaurants and bars in the cities, I saw overflowing bins of used waste paper. That was in major cities like Beijing and Shanghai. The situation was worse in more rural areas.
Disease Transmission
All of these poor practices can contribute to the spread of illness. The overall attitude though is not one of cleanliness and sanitation. Washing your hands after butchering an animal or going to the restroom is not seen as necessary in many parts of the country. For China to stem the tide of illness, and prevent future issues, they really need to change public attitudes around hygiene. The coronavirus can be spread via infected secretions, fecal matter or by a cough or sneeze. China’s hygiene standards increase the odds of all those possibilities.
Specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.
2 minutes ago, cynical-RN said:
Correlation is not an indication of causation, let alone sprinkling sanctimonious platitudes and responses feigned as nuanced discourse. You are making a quantum leap that is quite disingenuous.
The priggish author...
Perhaps it is because it has inflammatory language and unsubstantiated anecdotes improperly generalized to a bigger population.
Nope. The inflammatory language is yours. I get that you think the OP made a weak case. Fair enough. Maybe he doesn't have anywhere near enough information to form even a rudimentary hypothesis. I don't think he's given us nearly enough information to call him a racist.
You're welcome to keep on with the righteous indignation. I'll keep on giving him the benefit of the doubt. And that's where I'm leaving it.
Nope. The inflammatory language is yours. I get that you think the OP made a weak case. Fair enough. Maybe he doesn't have anywhere near enough information to form even a rudimentary hypothesis. I don't think he's given us nearly enough information to call him a racist.
You're welcome to keep on with the righteous indignation. I'll keep on giving him the benefit of the doubt. And that's where I'm leaving it.
I did not call him a racist. That would give him more credit than he deserves. To be a racist, you actually need the power to deny someone of dissimilar ethnicity/race access to resources. "Racist" is a word that is used carelessly. I have emphasized the article is biased with anecdotal evidence that should not be generalized to a diverse country of over 2 billion people. The article is littered with delusions of Western ethnocentrism, and the righteous indignation is from responses of people living in sterile glass houses here while throwing soiled stones. I asked you twice: why did this particular article elicit rebuke, out the several articles, posted nearly daily regarding the coronavirus and its variables? It is insensitive. Simple. You are welcome to keep riding your holier-than-thou horse and I will give the author the benefit of ignorance and Eurocentric arrogance.
I am a Chinese and, frankly, while some parts of this article may hold true, I am still feeling offended. You should definitely learn more about cultural differences. : )
I did not call him a racist. That would give him more credit than he deserves. To be a racist, you actually need the power to deny someone of dissimilar ethnicity/race access to resources. "Racist" is a word that is used carelessly. I have emphasized the article is biased with anecdotal evidence that should not be generalized to a diverse country of over 2 billion people. The article is littered with delusions of Western ethnocentrism, and the righteous indignation is from responses of people living in sterile glass houses here. You are welcome to keep riding your holier-than-thou horse and I will give the author the benefit of Eurocentric arrogance.
There was no claim or even subtle suggestion that the virus occurred because the people in these markets are Chinese, that would be what racism is. Claiming that circumstances which promote bacteria also promote viruses is incorrect, but not racist. I get that you don't think it's appropriate for the OP or anyone else falsely accuse someone of something, so ...
There was no claim or even subtle suggestion that the virus occurred because the people in these markets are Chinese, that would be what racism is. Claiming that circumstances which promote bacteria also promote viruses is incorrect, but not racist. I get that you don't think it's appropriate for the OP or anyone else falsely accuse someone of something, so ...
Again, I was concerned about biases as a result of anecdotes and premature conclusions, based on ignorance and a myopic viewpoint, not denotative racism. I am not fond of redundancy, but to label him racist, would be to give him more power than he deserves. That does not absolve him from his use of stereotypes and subjectivity to formulate illogical inferences. Engaging in more semantics is futile to discourse. Conditions that propagate bacterial infections and/or viral infections are not mutually exclusive. Having more people in a given perimeter will propagate any droplet/airborne transmittable disease irrespective of whether it is bacterial or viral -rudimentary epidemiology. The bigger issue is causation.
Specializes in Nurse Leader specializing in Labor & Delivery.
4 hours ago, cynical-RN said:
why did this particular article elicit rebuke, out the several articles, posted nearly daily regarding the coronavirus and its variables? It is insensitive. Simple.
And really, it comes down to this.
3 hours ago, MunoRN said:
There was no claim or even subtle suggestion that the virus occurred because the people in these markets are Chinese, that would be what racism is. Claiming that circumstances which promote bacteria also promote viruses is incorrect, but not racist. I get that you don't think it's appropriate for the OP or anyone else falsely accuse someone of something, so ...
But the whole article was written from a Eurocentric lens. That's the problem.
I'm so sick of the interminable name-calling and cheap virtue-signalling. What I took from the original post is that Gregg has been to China, seen some questionable food-handling practices (that are outlawed in many other countries) and thinks there may be some connection to the current coronavirus situation. He hypothesized from his own personal observations, which is the start of any scientific study.
Nowhere did I see that he maligned anyone or made any statements or even hinted that he sees other races or cultures as inferior. The article made no assertions as to who was the superior race, or had better overall health or longevity or any other comparison of peoples, races or cultures.
Whether the current coronavirus situation is due to dietary and food-handling practices, or something that escaped from a lab, or some other whole different thing remains to be seen. I think civil discourse is not promoted by jumping to call each other "racist" at the least provocation.
What you believe the article to be is completely different from the eyes of those who have faced multiple racist remarks ever since this "virus" erupted. You're right, nowhere in the article did he mention Chinese being an inferior race, but putting a picture of a bat soup (which hasn't even confirmed as the cause) on a front page of a forum as an admin is senseless and deceiving.
Generations change, and as you are a nurse for 39 years, it's quite hilarious and not surprising you cannot look into other people's eyes, and only see from your own viewpoints. Having a narrow-minded viewpoints certainly isn't going to allow you to see the actual problem of this article.
Specializes in Psych, Corrections, Med-Surg, Ambulatory.
I get that the article triggered a lot of people, hence the multiple posts with palpable rage and personal attacks. I'm only going to say this, because I predict the mods will be shutting down this thread:
The abhorrent thing about racism (and all forms of bigotry) is that it allows us to make assumptions and ascribe evil motives to someone we don't even know. It allows us to feel superior on an artificial basis.
If we are going to tout ourselves as healthcare workers who value evidence-based practice, we should at the minimum embrace objectivity and respect the scientific process; rather than unthinking acceptance of biased and unsubstantiated subjective anecdotes.
"Triggered" is not the word I would ever use in this context. This only shows how ignorant some people can be when it comes to respecting, embracing, and understanding cultural differences.
Racism comes in many forms. Sure, the OP did not specifically used racial terminations, but failure in having a tiny consideration of other cultural values in such profession like nursing is indeed abhorrent and repulsive.
We are taught to consider other cultures and values. Heck I had a question on how to approach a Chinese woman in a clinical setting because they have different cultures.
And here we are, discussing an article written by an admin who fails to realize what he wrote wreaks xenophobia and remarks created from non other than western point of view. It sickens me that some people are defending his stance, and even blatantly ignoring strong counter arguments that are presented.
Surely, the mods will have to close this thread, but I hope they also delete this senseless article. It would be vile to have this article up and have no one be able to refute such unfavorable claims.
I think anyone should be able to post their experiences and feelings about those experiences without getting criticism. Opinions and observations are just that. What compels individuals to read more into it?
If we are going to tout ourselves as healthcare workers who value evidence-based practice, we should at the minimum embrace objectivity and respect the scientific process; rather than unthinking acceptance of biased and unsubstantiated subjective anecdotes.
It is neither bias nor unsubstantiated (and therefore not racist either) to repeat the facts as stated by officials. Add to that, there is nothing wrong with sharing ones personal experience, and especially for the purpose of having a discussion about how poor hygiene affects health and wellness. It just so happens that this virus was first id'd in China, hence the discussion about the markets. Makes perfect sense (ie common sense) to me!
39 minutes ago, TriciaJ said:
I get that the article triggered a lot of people, hence the multiple posts with palpable rage and personal attacks. I'm only going to say this, because I predict the mods will be shutting down this thread:
The abhorrent thing about racism (and all forms of bigotry) is that it allows us to make assumptions and ascribe evil motives to someone we don't even know. It allows us to feel superior on an artificial basis.
And I'm done. Carry on.
I agree, and it also seems like those here who are accusing people of being racist are the ones making the most rude and insensitive comments, IMO.
Not only are they butchering pigs, ducks and chickens there are also stands with live frogs, eels, snakes and turtles. It’s not very sanitary and there are no regulations on how they discard the entrails. One moment a man could be butchering a snake, the next he could be handling a raw piece of pork before selling it to the consumer. The market was open-air even during the summer months. Raw meat sat out in 85-degree temperatures. The worst part was the unsanitary conditions. The animal waste, including feces, wasn’t discarded away from the food. I’m honestly surprised more people don’t get sick.
The squat toilet is just what it sounds like. In nice areas, they can be made of porcelain, like the attached picture, but in many spots, they are made of metal or wood. They are essentially a hole in the floor that you squat over to do your business. Again, the sanitation of these toilets is not great, especially if the previous user was careless with their aim. Another issue with Chinese restrooms is that in most you are not allowed to flush the toilet paper. In many areas, the plumbing isn’t capable of handling the waste paper. So what do people do with the waste paper? They place it in a garbage can or open bin. And again, the sanitation varies on whether or not the previous user cared to hit the bin with their waste paper. Even in restaurants and bars in the cities, I saw overflowing bins of used waste paper. That was in major cities like Beijing and Shanghai. The situation was worse in more rural areas.
TriciaJ, RN
4,328 Posts
Nope. The inflammatory language is yours. I get that you think the OP made a weak case. Fair enough. Maybe he doesn't have anywhere near enough information to form even a rudimentary hypothesis. I don't think he's given us nearly enough information to call him a racist.
You're welcome to keep on with the righteous indignation. I'll keep on giving him the benefit of the doubt. And that's where I'm leaving it.