'Moral values' and organ donation

[wannabee]

Ok, I know that organ donation has been discussed here more than once, but I couldn't find anything that addressed my particular question/issue........so here goes.

In this year's presidential election, many of the exit polls showed that people voted based on their "family/moral values." It seems they (not me!) voted for Bush because they felt he stood for those values, especially in regards to gay marriage, abortion, etc. I was very distraught after the election because I hear these people talking but I don't see these people taking moral action! Organ donation is just one of the areas that angers me.

How can the majority of this country stand on such moral high-ground and then show such PATHETIC organ donation numbers? People are dying because they can't get an organ when there are plenty available, but they get buried with the patient! How can you proclaim to be such a good person with such high moral values when you aren't even willing to donate your or your family's organs in the event of their death? I really don't see that as being a whole lot less than murder.

I'm not even a nurse yet, so I'm not right in the middle of this yet, but I do dread it! Anyway, this is just something that disturbs me deeply and I wanted to get your take on it, especially those of you, if any, that are not willing to donate. I'd like an explanation!

[begalli]

I'd be interested in hearing people defend the choice NOT to donate...I am curious if there are any other arguments against it. There seems to be a great deal of defensiveness, and "It's my choice! :angryfire ", but what are the arguments - other than the blanket reason - religion - and the thought of crazy doctors letting you die to harvest your organs?

I wonder why "because I don't want to" isn't good enough. Organ donation is and should be an unconditional act of giving. The desicion not to do it is an individual one and completely okay and should be accepted unconditionally.

To me, this is souinding more and more like a prejudice against people who don't want to donate. It's crazy.

And just to get one thing straight....No doctor "lets you die" just to harvest your organs. That's absolutely ludicrous and complete hyperbole.

[NurseGuy_in_06]

It would be immoral to have a government mandate. I absolutely agree. But I'm curious, why do you think it's NOT immoral to not donate your organs?

The term immoral, to me, means doing something that the bible specifically says I should not do. Lying, cheating, stealing, etc. Remember, I did not say I was against organ donation. I am saying it is not immoral to choose not to donate, anymore than it is immoral to not donate blood.

[NurseGuy_in_06]

I wonder why "because I don't want to" isn't good enough. Organ donation is and should be an unconditional act of giving. The desicion not to do it is an individual one and completely okay and should be accepted unconditionally.

To me, this is souinding more and more like a prejudice against people who don't want to donate. It's crazy.

And just to get one thing straight....No doctor "lets you die" just to harvest your organs. That's absolutely ludicrous and complete hyperbole.

Thank you. I feel beat up a lot lately when I post my views.

[SmilingBluEyes]

nevermind. this is another case where NO ONE is gonna change anyone's mind here. Enjoy the discourse! :)

[NiobiusSwan]

Posted by NiobiusSwan:

Now, I'm not saying all Christians are like that, I also know some amazing ones who do live their faith and make tremendous changes in the world. But, sometimes it seems to me that a personal hobby of mainstream Christians is not committing helpful, compassionate acts...not being PROACTIVE, but rather, finding faults in others and focusing on those - preventing what they perceive to be sin in other populations and persecuting those committing "sins" in the media and their own personal lives, and then claiming morality. To me, morality is not about finding reasons for other people to burn in hell, it is about making lives better and allowing (here will come my Christian background) Christ's love to come through you

Posted by NurseGuy_in_06:

The term immoral, to me, means doing something that the bible specifically says I should not do. Lying, cheating, stealing, etc

Alright...this is what I was referring to in that rather long paragraph. I feel that morality encompasses more than merely a lack of specific sins...NurseGuy, I admit I am not as biblically literate as I should be, so help me here. I know that the Bible orders that certain things NOT be done...does it also command that other acts are done?

I wouldn't say someone is immoral simply because they don't go out and volunteer all their free time or give money to a charity...but taking something you don't need, that other people do, seems immoral.

Oh well...if we can't even agree on a definition for morality, we aren't going to agree on this. I will say one more thing, though...I think there are a million acts and absences of acts that are immoral every day. I think I'm immoral for not recycling, lol. Perhaps I should word it this way, I don't think that one act such as organ donation determines whether a person is moral, that encompasses everything in that person's life. But the act itself, or its absence, is moral or immoral.

As far as "because I don't want to" not being good enough...well, it is. You don't want to, and you aren't. But since I'm discussing my reasons for believing it's immoral, I thought you might also discuss your thought process. I truly am curious.

[VizslaMom]

I'm sure there are some people that are baffled by the fact that some are signing the donation line on their drivers license (which, i'll add, is not the sure-fired way to get your parts donated). And it might strike them as immoral to be a donor. And some people do not view organ donation as a blessing.

Choices.

Exactly.

We had a young female in our ICU last summer with a severe head injury/brain death. She had previously signed her drivers license and was on the organ donation registry. The family was advised of the daughter's wishes. They totally disregarded her wishes and DENIED donation.

That's one of the most selfish of acts I've witnessed on my unit.

So shameful to deny someone their previously stated wishes in death, IMO.

So, PLEASE make your decision (either way) well known to your relatives/significant others NOW! And remind, remind, remind. You never know when someone may need to make that decision for you.

[NurseGuy_in_06]

Posted by NiobiusSwan:

Posted by NurseGuy_in_06:

Alright...this is what I was referring to in that rather long paragraph. I feel that morality encompasses more than merely a lack of specific sins...NurseGuy, I admit I am not as biblically literate as I should be, so help me here. I know that the Bible orders that certain things NOT be done...does it also command that other acts are done?

I wouldn't say someone is immoral simply because they don't go out and volunteer all their free time or give money to a charity...but taking something you don't need, that other people do, seems immoral.

Oh well...if we can't even agree on a definition for morality, we aren't going to agree on this. I will say one more thing, though...I think there are a million acts and absences of acts that are immoral every day. I think I'm immoral for not recycling, lol. Perhaps I should word it this way, I don't think that one act such as organ donation determines whether a person is moral, that encompasses everything in that person's life. But the act itself, or its absence, is moral or immoral.

As far as "because I don't want to" not being good enough...well, it is. You don't want to, and you aren't. But since I'm discussing my reasons for believing it's immoral, I thought you might also discuss your thought process. I truly am curious.

Let's just say that I choose not to donate...for now. And the Bible commands us to love and respect one another, to help others. You and I just put different items on top of our help list, and that is ok. I referred to feeling "beat up" earlier. I did not mean you or anyone who tries to change my mind. But some people that post here have a tendency to imply "agree with me or you are wrong" very emphatically. I really enjoy the discussions and have learned a lot about organ donation that I did not know. I hope you learned a few reasons why people choose not to donate also. :)

[Q.]

To me, this is souinding more and more like a prejudice against people who don't want to donate. It's crazy.

Exactly. Wow, begalli I agree with you. :)

I am a proponent of organ donation myself, and both my husband and I are donors. And yes, it's a tragedy that more people are not. But this is MY belief. Not everyone is going to feel that way, and just as I have no right to impose my religious OR moral beliefs onto people (such as abortion) I have no right to impose my religious or moral beliefs onto people about organ donation.

As I've pointed out, there are several religions and cultures that do not agree with organ donation for various reasons. Many religions and cultures believe in reincarnation and that your body must remain intact for reincarnation to be successful. Many cultures are against even simple surgeries because the scar will be with you forever, in your after-life. These beliefs are very real and very deep and personal to people.

As far as other people, again, maybe they just don't want to. I'm not a blood donor - simply because I don't want to be. I don't give to United Way, because I just don't want to. And that is my right. And I don't have to explain my reasons to anybody.

Just as abortion is a personal choice, so is organ donation. It's really that simple.

[PamUK]

Exactly.

We had a young female in our ICU last summer with a severe head injury/brain death. She had previously signed her drivers license and was on the organ donation registry. The family was advised of the daughter's wishes. They totally disregarded her wishes and DENIED donation.

That's one of the most selfish of acts I've witnessed on my unit.

So shameful to deny someone their previously stated wishes in death, IMO.

So, PLEASE make your decision (either way) well known to your relatives/significant others NOW! And remind, remind, remind. You never know when someone may need to make that decision for you.

I was shocked when I read this and thought that it wouldn't happen in the UK... would it? I've looked it up & this is what the law says over here

CURRENT LEGISLATION

In the UK, the law regarding removal of organs from people after their death is set out in the Human Tissue Act 1961, covering England, Scotland and Wales and the Human Tissue Act (Northern Ireland) 1962.

The Act states that if a person has expressed a wish in writing or orally in the presence of two or more witnesses during his or her last illness, that their body or any specified part may be used after death, the person "lawfully in possession" of their body - interpreted as the hospital authorities if they have died in hospital - may, unless there is reason to believe the request was subsequently withdrawn, authorise removal from the body of any part in accordance with the request.

If there is no evidence of such a wish the person lawfully in possession of the body may still authorise the removal of the organs provided that, after making "reasonable enquires" there is no reason to believe that the deceased had expressed an objection or that the surviving spouse or any surviving relative objects. In practice, relatives are always consulted and asked to give explicit consent. Where they cannot be found or they refuse, donation does not take place.

Even where there is evidence, such as a signed donor card or registration on the NHS Organ Donor Register, that the deceased wished to be a donor, relatives may refuse consent. Although technically the doctor could proceed with the removal of organs, in practice the wishes of relatives will always outweigh those of the deceased. There is growing argument that the wishes of the deceased should be paramount and countermanding a wish to donate is akin to changing the will of the deceased.

I am totally at a loss as to what to say or do. I want my organs used if possible and have signed a donor card. My partner, mother and my son & daughter all know my wishes, but I feel completely helpless that they could override my wishes after I am dead. I know my mother wouldn't and very much doubt that either of my children would refuse but I still feel... well violated!

The only thing I can think of doing immediately, is adding my wishes to my will (and striking out anyone who overrides my wishes!)

[Blackcat99]

Organ donation should be a personal decision. I do remember of reading about a woman who had malignant melanoma in her past and who was considered "cured of it." She then died and her organs were donated. The 2 people who got her organs then were diagnosed with malignant melanoma. So I think I will remain a non-donor. I will not accept organs either. I want to accept the organs God gave me whether they are in good condition or not.

[talaxandra]

Unfortunately a lot of diseases are not preventable. People get lupus or they don't.

Hi Fergus, good point - I didn't mean to imply that there shouldn't be any transplantation or NICUs, or that transplantation (or neonatal ICU) is necessarily a bad thing.

It's just that, in comparison to lower-profile diseases, organ failure affects relatively few people (compared, for example, with diabetes or hypertension). Yet transplantation gets so much attention, funding and publicity that it can be frustrating to see egregious lack of commensurate funding for equally-devastating, but less 'sexy' diseases.

Maybe if there was more publicity about curing autoimmune diseases we'd all be better off.

[PamUK]

Organ donation should be a personal decision. I do remember of reading about a woman who had malignant melanoma in her past and who was considered "cured of it." She then died and her organs were donated. The 2 people who got her organs then were diagnosed with malignant melanoma. So I think I will remain a non-donor. I will not accept organs either. I want to accept the organs God gave me whether they are in good condition or not.

I think this may well be apocryphal. Organ donation is blind, so very few people know which organs go to which recipient. For an article to say that both recipients were subsequently diagnosed (presumably many years later) with a melignant melanoma, sound too far fetched to my mind. I also very much doubt that someone with a history of maligant melanoma would be allowed to donate their organs.

By all means make your decision based on whatever reasons you wish or even no reason at all. But don't make decisons based on this spurious story you have read.