Masters vs DNP?

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Trying to choose between two programs and debating the MSN vs DNP route. Anyone have any insight on pros/cons to both?

Masters is way cheaper and you can always go back for your doctorate after working.. but also wondering if there is going to be a higher demand to hire DNP CRNA’s over masters prepares CRNAS.. any insight there? Thanks in advance!

Specializes in CRNA.

AACN is not an accreditor, so cannot mandate educational requirements. They were the first to publish a position statement that all APRN programs should be at the practice doctorate level. The COA is the first, and so far only, accrediting body to require the doctoral degree. Many NP programs are DNP, but it’s not required.

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Specializes in anesthesiology.

I would go MSN all the way. A lot of DNP programs will allow you to work while completing the DNP portion upfront, so it makes it more palatable. But I don't think you're missing out on any job opportunities. The programs I'm most familiar with in my area that are DNP and used to be MSN just added a bunch of discussion board posts and paper writing. It's more expensive and adds no clinical value. I understand it from a political perspective though, but practically speaking I think it's pretty worthless. (Think BSN vs. ADN).

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Specializes in anesthesiology.
On 10/11/2019 at 4:39 PM, BigPappaCRNA said:

Sorry, but this is your very first post, and you seem to "know" an awful lot. Your entire post reads like a Troll to me. Your logic and reasoning for your #1 is so painful, torturous, and illogical. It reads like and MDA troll to me.

If an MDA ever trolled allnurses.com that would be one helluva pitiful MDA. Much better places to troll CRNAs.

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).

Just recently graduated from Hopkins, which is moving to all-DNP. However, my professors said it makes more sense to get the MSN, start working as an NP, then go to school part time to get the DNP, if you want. At this point, there is no advantage to having a DNP for employment purposes and it will be a long time, if ever, before it there is an advantage to the DNP. Many areas of the country are all ready short of providers, so jacking up requirements makes no sense.

Financially, if you can afford to get the DNP now, go for it if that's what you want.

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Specializes in Critical Care.

@BigPappaCRNA wow, I felt I would meet you half way and at least admit that it sounds a little trolley. I will tell you the exact reason I posted for the first time, maybe this will make you feel better or realize that I am not an MDA. I would not even both to do this but now that I am familiar with the site it might be a place that I would like to return to in the future to interact with the forum's users:

1) I am not a social media person and in the past was not a forums person. My coworker was using the site and she happened to click on this thread, and I was looking over her shoulder and was like "whhoa whoa wait, go back." I felt I had to respond and thus created a response. #2 will explain why the topic piqued my interest

2) I volunteer extensively, giving hours of pro bono advice to high school seniors preparing to attend college, college students, and masters/DNP/JD/MD/PhD/PA-C students who are trying to decide how best to prepare for the debt they may incur or how to manage the debt they have already incurred. It is a commitment I have made because my background in wealth management and the financial services field, prior to nursing, has given me the skills and knowledge to help people with something unrelated to Healthcare. It may seem odd but I am really passionate about keeping younger people and families out of debt. My spouse had a ton of debt prior to us meeting and we've struggled a lot because of it.

3) As far as raising the bar I feel like there is a lot to unpack here. When I entered nursing I was shocked by the culture. In many other professions inacting change improves the workers overall quality of life. The bar should never just represent our work lives. If we are raising the bar than that raised bar should improve our standing, the respect we garner, our level of education, decreased burn out, and improvement outside of work. Increased debt leads to increase stress at home, which correlates to increased burnout, and a decrease in reported satisfaction with employment. It really sounds like you're fooling yourself as it sounds to me that you're talking from a playbook. Even if it is the playbook associated with nursing, it is still a playbook. I encourage people to think for themselves, everything you believe doesn't have to come from the AANA, even if you belong to it and are an involved member.

4) More time spent getting educated does not necessarily make someone a better provider. I don't care whether or not it adds 2 months or 5 months or an entire year, any extra time in school is just that, extra time in school and a later start date for work. The online MSN to DNP programs are a bargain compared to what I spent going straight through the DNP.

5) You ask, "why wait?" you don't actually have to wait, one of my coworkers started working and then 2 months later enrolled in the DNP portion online. She had the option of DNP completion at the school she graduated from but it was about 6 times more expensive as it was private (I believe she ended up doing an in-state online program which was far cheaper).

6) A changed "rule" doesn't always equal a better rule. Until DNP is mandated we won't actually have unbiased data on the effects of the mandation. Thus we will not know if there is a causative effect or the manfation of the degree on things such as improved outcomes, decreased burnout, CRNA's rating of work satisfaction (although I feel that there is no way work would become less satisfying--but again that is just a feeling, and it isn't based on facts or data).

7) It seems that it won't matter what I say, you are going to be convinced I am a masquerading MDA. I am sure there are posters on allnurses that do not disagree with me, I am also sure their are posters who disagree with me vehemently...

I guess the question is, is this the type of forum where I can have an opinion that may go against the grain and be cast aside for that reason? Or is this truly a place where all opinions are welcome? Maybe other members of allnurses can let me know, and you @BigPappaCRNAcertainly can feel free to answer that. It's pretty hysterical to be in a situation wherein someone is basically saying, "I am not a doctor, I am not a doctor." As a member of the nursing profession though, when it comes to this stuff, nothing surprises me anymore.

Take care.

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Specializes in CRNA.

Cuppideecake

I think the most provocative thing you stated in your original post was that holding a DN(A)P would hurt a new graduates employment prospects. Do you want to work for an employer that would prefer a MS over a DN(A)P graduate based on degree alone? I would not.

The financial aspect of being a full time student longer is compelling-but it's not typically an extra year-more in the 6 month range. That's because the MS programs in nurse anesthesia are well beyond a MS degree in most fields.

Yes, nurse anesthesia programs are expensive but with some advance planning and budgeting you can be back to 0 within 1-3 years. Work OT for 2 or 3 years in the ICU, save 50k and avoid loans for at least the first semester or 2. The interest on grad loans starts immediately so that is a big help.

What has shocked you about the culture in nursing?

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Specializes in Critical Care.

@loveanesthesiathank you for your thoughtful response.

I wouldn't want to work for that employer either, I stated before I find that situation to be disgusting. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Regarding culture shock, CRNA school was great but for BSN I found that professors were very discouraging when I was in school, "most of you won't be here in 3 mos."/"half of you will fail"/majority of testing uses trickery instead of inspiring critical thinking/A lack of pbl. And I graduated 2nd in my class so it's not like I have a personal axe to grind. Not one person in my class or the one after achieved a cum laude designation due to the crazy grading scale compared to the rest of the school. My original BA and MBA school were very very different. we have a culture where the old eat the young, and now the young are eating the old. Burnout in our field is very high. I think we have done a poor job of making the public aware of what we do, I believe part of that to be due to such a large variety of post-nominal initials (lvn VS lpn, DNP VS dnap etc). Nurses are worked to the bone, it's nothing new... And yet no solutions yet. I'm trying to be a part of the change. I just don't necessarily think that doctorate VS masters will contribute positively to the field overall.

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Specializes in Critical Care.

Oh and lastly, I come on here with a different opinion and I'm labeled a troll. That shocked me

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I never had any of this weirdness for my BSN. I was an ADN grad.

We were required to take the toughest course first, and if you passed that, your odds were very good. There were no silly games about who will make it.

No class I ever took in all my years, including my MSN, was ever harder than my first A and P class in my ADN class at the CC.

Not even close.

Now I hear about people who get their RN at the BSN level and then can't pass NCLEX.

Something is extremely wrong.

If a DNP is only a few extra months, as you say, how meaningful is it?

I have repeatedly made the embarrassing argument that the DNP is not remotely close to other doctorates.

I refuse it. It is bull fecal matter.

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Specializes in anesthesiology.

I really don't think the MSN vs DNP job competition will ever be a thing for CRNAs. To be extra competitive in the job market as a CRNA means you are capable of practicing independently, are proficient in regional anesthesia, and comfortable with OB and peds. You are a provider and your skills make you valuable.

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Specializes in CRNA.
On 10/14/2019 at 7:14 PM, Oldmahubbard said:

If a DNP is only a few extra months, as you say, how meaningful is it?

I have repeatedly made the embarrassing argument that the DNP is not remotely close to other doctorates.

I refuse it. It is bull fecal matter.

MS nurse anesthesia programs have evolved into super master’s degrees. 30 continuous months and 80 credits. The regional accreditors were questioning the extensive requirements for a MS. So the reason the DN(A)P is 6 months longer is the MS was not really a MS anymore. The doctoral CRNA programs are every bit as rigorous as a DPT or PharmD. The degree is far from bull fecal matter.

Cuppidee-that nursing program culture sounds annoying. Partly due to the huge emphasis on first attempt board pass rates as a proxy for quality. Other professions don’t put the onus for passing boards on the educational program the way nursing does. I thought you might be referring to nursing denigrating advanced degrees. That’s been a part of the culture for a long time. I earned a BSN in 1984 and didn’t wear my school pin (which was commonly done by RNs) because it was viewed negatively.

Burn out is an issue for a lot of health care providers, including nurses. But I can’t imagine doing anything else. I believe the future has never been brighter and the doctoral degree is a positive natural evolution of the profession. The people entering the profession are impressive!

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Specializes in CRNA.
1 hour ago, Cuppideecake said:

Oh and lastly, I come on here with a different opinion and I'm labeled a troll. That shocked me

I think that’s just an online anonymity thing.

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