Masters vs DNP?

This debate is quickly going away. Everyone will be DNP/DNAP by 2021, which means next year's application cycle. Many of the programs are currently interviewing/accepting to their last masters program cohort. You may have missed the masters boat if that's what you were leaning towards.

I guess this should’ve been worded differently..

Are there any real benefits to choosing a DNP program over an MSN program if you were accepted to both? My concern with choosing an MSN program is if they are going to require you to have a DNP when you graduate.. will it be more difficult to find a job/get hired if you graduate with a masters?

That is a much different question! The only advantage doing the DNP upfront is not having to get accepted into another program after you finish your master (at least this is a plus for me) and time, as in it will take longer to be completely done with school. Total cost *may* be a factor also, but I am not 100%. It would depend on the cost of your masters and how much the completion doctorate program is vs the cost of the DNP --there are a few very inexpensive completion doctorates. Master's vs doctorate is not going to matter for getting a job. Being able to earn money while getting your doctorate is a huge plus. I am not sure who the "they" is that would require you to have a DNP, but it isn't going to be any potential employers--at least not any time soon. Hope that helps.

Awesome insight. Thanks for the reply!

@sicurnccrn without a doubt do the MSN. Here are 3 really good reasons why:

1) With regards to employment: Not only will the DNP not help you achieve employment success, it may actually hurt you & make you less attractive as an employee in certain practice settings (depending factors such as who does the recruiting, interviewing, hiring). Let's pretend you're being interviewed by an MD anesthesiologist who happens to 'lead' the anesthesia care team: Do you really think this MD wants his care team filled w/providers baring the professional designation, "doctor," despite not being doctors? I'm not saying that what the MD is doing is right, but I am being realistic. This is based on my thoughts & opinions of those also in the field. All things being equal I would put money on certain MDe more hiring MSN or AAs at a higher rate than DNPs. Similarly, if both applicants were equal & the MD had to hire either an AA or DNP (w/out the MSN as an option) I would put money on some MDs selecting AAs over DNPs at higher rates. The majority of interaction between MDAs, CRNAs, & AAs is wonderful & cordial. But the bad apples & the politicking behind the scenes is messing with what we all want, which is what is best for the patient.

2) Time/Money: Every extra month you stay in school full time is a month that you are A) not working, B) paying to learn. If you add 1 year to your schooling that is 1 more year you paid money while simultaneously being effectively unemployed. CRNA school is hard. If you have a family or a life, that extra year of time away from them/business is bad for you & your fam/peeps

3) if you really feel like you missed out & you just cannot contain your desire for a DNP, you can take one class at a time online (or go at whatever pace you desire) to get that doctorate portion done a few years down the road, if at all. And it can be done while your actually making money. Plus there are so many online-only programs that just offer the doctorate piece to those already with CRNA degrees. So you can shop around & not worry about moving, & just do what fits into your life.

4) I would really think that the schools that still have an MSN cohort that was/is open still for application/matriculation must really have seen an intense spike in the number of applicantions they received this cycle... And there is good reason for that (see #1-#3)

On 10/11/2019 at 2:17 AM, Cuppideecake said:

@sicurnccrn without a doubt do the MSN. Here are 3 really good reasons why:

1) With regards to employment: Not only will the DNP not help you achieve employment success, it may actually hurt you & make you less attractive as an employee in certain practice settings (depending factors such as who does the recruiting, interviewing, hiring). Let's pretend you're being interviewed by an MD anesthesiologist who happens to 'lead' the anesthesia care team: Do you really think this MD wants his care team filled w/providers baring the professional designation, "doctor," despite not being doctors? I'm not saying that what the MD is doing is right, but I am being realistic. This is based on my thoughts & opinions of those also in the field. All things being equal I would put money on certain MDe more hiring MSN or AAs at a higher rate than DNPs. Similarly, if both applicants were equal & the MD had to hire either an AA or DNP (w/out the MSN as an option) I would put money on some MDs selecting AAs over DNPs at higher rates. The majority of interaction between MDAs, CRNAs, & AAs is wonderful & cordial. But the bad apples & the politicking behind the scenes is messing with what we all want, which is what is best for the patient.

2) Time/Money: Every extra month you stay in school full time is a month that you are A) not working, B) paying to learn. If you add 1 year to your schooling that is 1 more year you paid money while simultaneously being effectively unemployed. CRNA school is hard. If you have a family or a life, that extra year of time away from them/business is bad for you & your fam/peeps

3) if you really feel like you missed out & you just cannot contain your desire for a DNP, you can take one class at a time online (or go at whatever pace you desire) to get that doctorate portion done a few years down the road, if at all. And it can be done while your actually making money. Plus there are so many online-only programs that just offer the doctorate piece to those already with CRNA degrees. So you can shop around & not worry about moving, & just do what fits into your life.

4) I would really think that the schools that still have an MSN cohort that was/is open still for application/matriculation must really have seen an intense spike in the number of applicantions they received this cycle... And there is good reason for that (see #1-#3)

Sorry, but this is your very first post, and you seem to "know" an awful lot. Your entire post reads like a Troll to me. Your logic and reasoning for your #1 is so painful, torturous, and illogical. It reads like and MDA troll to me.

@BigPappaCRNAyeah it reads a little trolly to me too. It just is an honest opinion. I haven't observed much hostility between MDAs, AAs, and CRNAs in real life. But I do know that there are a few crappy MDA apples out there who don't bring their feelings to work and share them. One of the reasons I may "know" a lot is because I was successful, yet unhappy, in wealth management prior to nursing. So when it comes to financial matters I actually do know quite a bit. You will note that not only do I literally tell the OP that if they want their DNP to do it while working, but I also imply that they should take advantage of the MSN programs while they still can, and be grandfathered in. I didn't say that my point in #1 was based on logic or reason. That seems to sometimes unfortunately be at the epicenter of these arguments: they are not based on logic or reason, they are based on emotion. An MDA would be an idiot to discriminate based on whether the person is a doctorate or not, but idiots do exist.

From my perspective, there are a hell of a lot of people out there up to their eyeballs in debt from school loans.

I can tell you that the degree is just that, a degree. It is what you choose to do with it. In my time in the financial sector I engaged with many healthcare professionals. Would it shock you to know that one of my clients was a PA in primary care private practice making over 450k a year in a small city where cost of living was low to moderate? Would it surprise you to know that I had a physician client, a recognized expert nationally in their field struggling to get by, who took on tutoring as a second job because they were up to their eyeballs in debt? When it comes to terminal degrees, the less debt you can take on the better off you are.

Yes point #1 reads as trolly. Making a judgement based on the number of posts a person has though is pretty bizarre, it's as if you think that the number of posts someone has may correlate with their knowledge or investment in the field. Come on, this is a forum dude.

Lastly, I'm not happy about the situation I describe in #1 @BigPappaCRNA. It's a situation that frankly is concerning and pisses me off. Let's just hope that the people we interact with most went into Healthcare for the right reasons, and that the people who are literal balls of ego goo are few and far between. Cheers!

Thanks for your posts! Appreciate it for sure :)

Starting after the BSN, the DNP is at least 3 years of full time school, which is an enormous commitment, with no guaranteed significant salary raise.

The MSN requirement for NPs was very appropriate, although the curricula needs great improvement.

Anyone with an Internet connection can look up the DNP and see it is a largely a farce. It is in no way the equivalent of a doctorate in other fields. Not even close.

I'm just glad to be old enough that I don't have to worry about it.

On 10/11/2019 at 5:48 PM, Cuppideecake said:

@BigPappaCRNAyeah it reads a little trolly to me too. It just is an honest opinion. I haven't observed much hostility between MDAs, AAs, and CRNAs in real life. But I do know that there are a few crappy MDA apples out there who don't bring their feelings to work and share them. One of the reasons I may "know" a lot is because I was successful, yet unhappy, in wealth management prior to nursing. So when it comes to financial matters I actually do know quite a bit. You will note that not only do I literally tell the OP that if they want their DNP to do it while working, but I also imply that they should take advantage of the MSN programs while they still can, and be grandfathered in. I didn't say that my point in #1 was based on logic or reason. That seems to sometimes unfortunately be at the epicenter of these arguments: they are not based on logic or reason, they are based on emotion. An MDA would be an idiot to discriminate based on whether the person is a doctorate or not, but idiots do exist.

From my perspective, there are a hell of a lot of people out there up to their eyeballs in debt from school loans.

I can tell you that the degree is just that, a degree. It is what you choose to do with it. In my time in the financial sector I engaged with many healthcare professionals. Would it shock you to know that one of my clients was a PA in primary care private practice making over 450k a year in a small city where cost of living was low to moderate? Would it surprise you to know that I had a physician client, a recognized expert nationally in their field struggling to get by, who took on tutoring as a second job because they were up to their eyeballs in debt? When it comes to terminal degrees, the less debt you can take on the better off you are.

Yes point #1 reads as trolly. Making a judgement based on the number of posts a person has though is pretty bizarre, it's as if you think that the number of posts someone has may correlate with their knowledge or investment in the field. Come on, this is a forum dude. 

No, it is not bizarre. What seemed bizarre (and frankly still does) is for someone who has never posted before of any kind, to post a fairly long missive, with talking points straight from the ASA playbook, and giving advice on keeping the bar as low as possible for as long as possible, instead of stepping up and raising the bar.

Additionally, virtually every program out there is 27-30 months as is. I believe there are only 2 programs in the country that are still 24 months. Getting the DNP or equivalent now, really does not add a full year, more like 6-8 months. Additionally, it is going to cost money either way, whether you take it now, or take it later, and the cost of that tuition is not going to get cheaper, so why wait?

Finally, there are tons of jobs out there, already, that are doctorate required. ALREADY!! Yes, if someone ducks into one of the final MSN classes they will have the opportunity to graduate and be a CRNA, but their choices and options after that are already being reduced. If it was me, I would rather assure myself that every door was open. All APNs are going to doctoral entry level, and must be that by 2025. That is an AACN mandate, not one from the COA.

AACN is not an accreditor, so cannot mandate educational requirements. They were the first to publish a position statement that all APRN programs should be at the practice doctorate level. The COA is the first, and so far only, accrediting body to require the doctoral degree. Many NP programs are DNP, but it’s not required.