Cuppideecake

Oh and lastly, I come on here with a different opinion and I'm labeled a troll. That shocked me

@loveanesthesiathank you for your thoughtful response. I wouldn't want to work for that employer either, I stated before I find that situation to be disgusting. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Regarding culture shock, CRNA school was great but for BSN I found that professors were very discouraging when I was in school, "most of you won't be here in 3 mos."/"half of you will fail"/majority of testing uses trickery instead of inspiring critical thinking/A lack of pbl. And I graduated 2nd in my class so it's not like I have a personal axe to grind. Not one person in my class or the one after achieved a cum laude designation due to the crazy grading scale compared to the rest of the school. My original BA and MBA school were very very different. we have a culture where the old eat the young, and now the young are eating the old. Burnout in our field is very high. I think we have done a poor job of making the public aware of what we do, I believe part of that to be due to such a large variety of post-nominal initials (lvn VS lpn, DNP VS dnap etc). Nurses are worked to the bone, it's nothing new... And yet no solutions yet. I'm trying to be a part of the change. I just don't necessarily think that doctorate VS masters will contribute positively to the field overall.

@BigPappaCRNA wow, I felt I would meet you half way and at least admit that it sounds a little trolley. I will tell you the exact reason I posted for the first time, maybe this will make you feel better or realize that I am not an MDA. I would not even both to do this but now that I am familiar with the site it might be a place that I would like to return to in the future to interact with the forum's users: 1) I am not a social media person and in the past was not a forums person. My coworker was using the site and she happened to click on this thread, and I was looking over her shoulder and was like "whhoa whoa wait, go back." I felt I had to respond and thus created a response. #2 will explain why the topic piqued my interest 2) I volunteer extensively, giving hours of pro bono advice to high school seniors preparing to attend college, college students, and masters/DNP/JD/MD/PhD/PA-C students who are trying to decide how best to prepare for the debt they may incur or how to manage the debt they have already incurred. It is a commitment I have made because my background in wealth management and the financial services field, prior to nursing, has given me the skills and knowledge to help people with something unrelated to Healthcare. It may seem odd but I am really passionate about keeping younger people and families out of debt. My spouse had a ton of debt prior to us meeting and we've struggled a lot because of it. 3) As far as raising the bar I feel like there is a lot to unpack here. When I entered nursing I was shocked by the culture. In many other professions inacting change improves the workers overall quality of life. The bar should never just represent our work lives. If we are raising the bar than that raised bar should improve our standing, the respect we garner, our level of education, decreased burn out, and improvement outside of work. Increased debt leads to increase stress at home, which correlates to increased burnout, and a decrease in reported satisfaction with employment. It really sounds like you're fooling yourself as it sounds to me that you're talking from a playbook. Even if it is the playbook associated with nursing, it is still a playbook. I encourage people to think for themselves, everything you believe doesn't have to come from the AANA, even if you belong to it and are an involved member. 4) More time spent getting educated does not necessarily make someone a better provider. I don't care whether or not it adds 2 months or 5 months or an entire year, any extra time in school is just that, extra time in school and a later start date for work. The online MSN to DNP programs are a bargain compared to what I spent going straight through the DNP. 5) You ask, "why wait?" you don't actually have to wait, one of my coworkers started working and then 2 months later enrolled in the DNP portion online. She had the option of DNP completion at the school she graduated from but it was about 6 times more expensive as it was private (I believe she ended up doing an in-state online program which was far cheaper). 6) A changed "rule" doesn't always equal a better rule. Until DNP is mandated we won't actually have unbiased data on the effects of the mandation. Thus we will not know if there is a causative effect or the manfation of the degree on things such as improved outcomes, decreased burnout, CRNA's rating of work satisfaction (although I feel that there is no way work would become less satisfying--but again that is just a feeling, and it isn't based on facts or data). 7) It seems that it won't matter what I say, you are going to be convinced I am a masquerading MDA. I am sure there are posters on allnurses that do not disagree with me, I am also sure their are posters who disagree with me vehemently... I guess the question is, is this the type of forum where I can have an opinion that may go against the grain and be cast aside for that reason? Or is this truly a place where all opinions are welcome? Maybe other members of allnurses can let me know, and you @BigPappaCRNAcertainly can feel free to answer that. It's pretty hysterical to be in a situation wherein someone is basically saying, "I am not a doctor, I am not a doctor." As a member of the nursing profession though, when it comes to this stuff, nothing surprises me anymore. Take care.

Lastly, I'm not happy about the situation I describe in #1 @BigPappaCRNA. It's a situation that frankly is concerning and pisses me off. Let's just hope that the people we interact with most went into Healthcare for the right reasons, and that the people who are literal balls of ego goo are few and far between. Cheers!

@BigPappaCRNAyeah it reads a little trolly to me too. It just is an honest opinion. I haven't observed much hostility between MDAs, AAs, and CRNAs in real life. But I do know that there are a few crappy MDA apples out there who don't bring their feelings to work and share them. One of the reasons I may "know" a lot is because I was successful, yet unhappy, in wealth management prior to nursing. So when it comes to financial matters I actually do know quite a bit. You will note that not only do I literally tell the OP that if they want their DNP to do it while working, but I also imply that they should take advantage of the MSN programs while they still can, and be grandfathered in. I didn't say that my point in #1 was based on logic or reason. That seems to sometimes unfortunately be at the epicenter of these arguments: they are not based on logic or reason, they are based on emotion. An MDA would be an idiot to discriminate based on whether the person is a doctorate or not, but idiots do exist. From my perspective, there are a hell of a lot of people out there up to their eyeballs in debt from school loans. I can tell you that the degree is just that, a degree. It is what you choose to do with it. In my time in the financial sector I engaged with many healthcare professionals. Would it shock you to know that one of my clients was a PA in primary care private practice making over 450k a year in a small city where cost of living was low to moderate? Would it surprise you to know that I had a physician client, a recognized expert nationally in their field struggling to get by, who took on tutoring as a second job because they were up to their eyeballs in debt? When it comes to terminal degrees, the less debt you can take on the better off you are. Yes point #1 reads as trolly. Making a judgement based on the number of posts a person has though is pretty bizarre, it's as if you think that the number of posts someone has may correlate with their knowledge or investment in the field. Come on, this is a forum dude.

@sicurnccrn without a doubt do the MSN. Here are 3 really good reasons why: 1) With regards to employment: Not only will the DNP not help you achieve employment success, it may actually hurt you & make you less attractive as an employee in certain practice settings (depending factors such as who does the recruiting, interviewing, hiring). Let's pretend you're being interviewed by an MD anesthesiologist who happens to 'lead' the anesthesia care team: Do you really think this MD wants his care team filled w/providers baring the professional designation, "doctor," despite not being doctors? I'm not saying that what the MD is doing is right, but I am being realistic. This is based on my thoughts & opinions of those also in the field. All things being equal I would put money on certain MDe more hiring MSN or AAs at a higher rate than DNPs. Similarly, if both applicants were equal & the MD had to hire either an AA or DNP (w/out the MSN as an option) I would put money on some MDs selecting AAs over DNPs at higher rates. The majority of interaction between MDAs, CRNAs, & AAs is wonderful & cordial. But the bad apples & the politicking behind the scenes is messing with what we all want, which is what is best for the patient. 2) Time/Money: Every extra month you stay in school full time is a month that you are A) not working, B) paying to learn. If you add 1 year to your schooling that is 1 more year you paid money while simultaneously being effectively unemployed. CRNA school is hard. If you have a family or a life, that extra year of time away from them/business is bad for you & your fam/peeps 3) if you really feel like you missed out & you just cannot contain your desire for a DNP, you can take one class at a time online (or go at whatever pace you desire) to get that doctorate portion done a few years down the road, if at all. And it can be done while your actually making money. Plus there are so many online-only programs that just offer the doctorate piece to those already with CRNA degrees. So you can shop around & not worry about moving, & just do what fits into your life. 4) I would really think that the schools that still have an MSN cohort that was/is open still for application/matriculation must really have seen an intense spike in the number of applicantions they received this cycle... And there is good reason for that (see #1-#3)