Mask refusal

rzyzzy · Aug 10, 2020

I don’t think it’s legal or ethical.

I quit a job because my (former) employer did the same thing - “required” patients to wear masks, unless they didn’t want to wear a mask.

In that role, it wasn’t just me getting exposed involuntarily- there were up to eighteen other patients in the same room getting exposed. And the other patients were all considered immune compromised.

If anything, I felt it was unethical to accept care of an unmasked patient who had no medical need to skip the mask. I had to quit. No unemployment & lost my health insurance for a couple of months during this pandemic.

I ended up getting a raise at my new job. A few of my former patients are dead of covid.

This is, no doubt, why certain people in government want “liability protection” as part of any future stimulus package.. So healthcare employers can intentionally do the wrong things for profit.

MarkMyWords · Aug 12, 2020

In most units and situations, all patients need to wear a mask. . In other situations and hospitals, exceptions can be made. Standing 6 feet away is not enough for you? Are all the Covid-related rules in writing for patients?

What if someone needed CPR, breathing close to you, will you refuse and let her die? You realize that statistically chances of infection are very tiny. Risk is a matter of degree from none to big-- depending on your state, health, and your particular job.. The nurse's career and duty is treating all patients-- unless the situation is so strange that it is impossible. All ethicists I know of agree. If you feel strongly against caring for a maskless patient, then by all means arrange for another nurse to handle him, if possible.

Editorial Team / Admin · Aug 12, 2020

12 minutes ago, Mywords1 said:
What if someone needed CPR, breathing close to you, will you refuse and let her die?

Actually, AHA has come out with guidelines and in fact state to put on PPE to guard against both airborne and droplet particles before entering the scene. So yes, there may indeed be adverse effects to the patient when the rescuer needs to protect themselves. Scene safety is after all the first thing to check- not even responsiveness.

OP, what guidance has your administration put out for care of patients refusing a mask? Mine flat out states that if the patient refuses to wear a mask for anything other than a health reason, they may not enter the building unless emergency treatment is needed. Anyone besides a patient refusing to wear a mask for any reason may not enter the building.

macawake, MSN · Aug 12, 2020

1 hour ago, Mywords1 said:
In most units and situations, all patients need to wear a mask. . In other situations and hospitals, exceptions can be made. Standing 6 feet away is not enough for you? Are all the Covid-related rules in writing for patients?
What if someone needed CPR, breathing close to you, will you refuse and let her die? You realize that statistically chances of infection are very tiny. Risk is a matter of degree from none to big-- depending on your state, health, and your particular job.. The nurse's career and duty is treating all patients-- unless the situation is so strange that it is impossible. All ethicists I know of agree. If you feel strongly against caring for a maskless patient, then by all means arrange for another nurse to handle him, if possible.

If the patient was wearing a mask it would be removed anyway in order to perform CPR. So why is this a question? It’s not really relevant to OP’s post as far as I can tell. I’d of course use PPE for myself, but I wouldn’t demand that the patient did in the CPR scenario..

Also, it’d be very hard for OP to stand six feet away while administering a vaccine. If you ask me personally what my pick would be if I could choose only one, distance or mask, I’d choose distance every time. But the mask is useful for those occasions when you can’t stay at a safe distance.

DeeAngel · Aug 12, 2020

This demonstrates nicely why I left the BS of nursing behind forever.

rzyzzy · Aug 12, 2020

1 hour ago, Mywords1 said:
In most units and situations, all patients need to wear a mask. . In other situations and hospitals, exceptions can be made. Standing 6 feet away is not enough for you? Are all the Covid-related rules in writing for patients?
What if someone needed CPR, breathing close to you, will you refuse and let her die? You realize that statistically chances of infection are very tiny. Risk is a matter of degree from none to big-- depending on your state, health, and your particular job.. The nurse's career and duty is treating all patients-- unless the situation is so strange that it is impossible. All ethicists I know of agree. If you feel strongly against caring for a maskless patient, then by all means arrange for another nurse to handle him, if possible.

And what about the immune-compromised patients being exposed to unmasked patients while under a nurse’s care? At some point the nurse assumes responsibility for allowing an unsafe and unnecessary “exception” endangering the other patients under their care, regardless of what the corporate overlords say.

My former employer required me to allow unmasked patients onto a common treatment floor with vulnerable patients - and distancing was/is impossible in that situation.

The situation I experienced should *rightly* expose the corporation to civil liability for knowingly endangering vulnerable patients (and staff) without a good medical excuse.

The policy was written to require masks on patients in the beginning of the pandemic, and revised to allow grumpy unmasked patients (without a medical need to skip the mask) after at least one grumpy patient was escorted out of the building by the local police - for refusing to mask up, then refusing to leave the treatment floor. No one needed “CPR”, this was not “emergency” care.

Spartacvs, BSN · Aug 13, 2020

It's very simple... No Mask... No Treatment

Don't work for an organization that doesn't follow this principle.

Let your boots speak.

Im Spartacvs!

BSN-to-MSN, ADN, BSN, RN · Aug 13, 2020

That's a pity and unfair to nurses.

1 hour ago, Spartacvs said:
Don't work for an organization that doesn't follow this principle.

Easy to say, some nurses are not able to find other jobs.

JKL33 · Aug 13, 2020

21 hours ago, Mywords1 said:
In most units and situations, all patients need to wear a mask. . In other situations and hospitals, exceptions can be made. Standing 6 feet away is not enough for you? Are all the Covid-related rules in writing for patients?
What if someone needed CPR, breathing close to you, will you refuse and let her die? You realize that statistically chances of infection are very tiny. Risk is a matter of degree from none to big-- depending on your state, health, and your particular job.. The nurse's career and duty is treating all patients-- unless the situation is so strange that it is impossible. All ethicists I know of agree. If you feel strongly against caring for a maskless patient, then by all means arrange for another nurse to handle him, if possible.

Your CPR scenario is an easily-identifiable strawman as that clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP situation.

Please inform us which ethical philosophies would obligate one individual to place themselves in a situation of health risk in order to satisfy another individual's preference in a non-emergent situation.

Spartacvs, BSN · Aug 13, 2020

Yepp, I know its easy to say. However, if they are willing to compromise your health in this matter, you'd be better off cutting your losses before they do something else that will.

Sherrie Smith · Aug 13, 2020

Mywords1 - It's easy for you to preach ethics behind the safety of your desk during the deadliest health crisis of our lifetimes.

Thank you to fellow nurses for the discussion and support.

Tenebrae, BSN, RN · Aug 14, 2020

We've just gone to masking up and work.

Visitors and patients are also being asked to wear masks

Your managers need to pull their heads out of their collective rectums and start putting the health and wellness of their staff first