man holding wife still during epidural dies!

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Just read the ap report about a woman in labor at a kaiser hospital. Apparently the anethesia professional (don't know which kind crna, mda or aa) asked the husband to help hold the wife still while the needle was inserted into the epidural space of her back and, he saw the needle going in and fainted, fell over and hit his head, suffered a fatal brain bleed and died 2 days later. Of course the wife is sueing, stating that he was asked to assist the procedure and so "reasonable" care should have been taken to prevent reasonable forseable complications/accidents. My thoughts as a simply a student, is that this is a firviolous lawsuit, and the lawyer that is encouraging her to go forth with this case should be ashamed. Also I am so saddened for this family to have such a joyous event marred and a life gone without warning. I guess to all of you L/D nurses and CRNA's etc... don't ask a family member to help hold the mom still. :uhoh21: What are your takes on this?

Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
The difference here would be that holding still for a dressing change will not risk severely injuring them should they move. Letting family be involved in a patient's care is what we are striving for, but sometimes there are things that the family should be excluded from for the safety of all involved.

I don't know how many epidural/spinal/intrathecal anesthesia cases you personally have been the supervising RN for, but if you had done even 1, I'm sure you would realize that it is not the person supporting the moms' responsibility to "keep her still". Whether it is a nurse or the housekeeper.

Also, you need to realize that people faint watching their kids get stitches or shots. Don't laugh, been there, seen it, helped "ease" the parent to the ground. This situation could happen to any family member in any given case. All the public does now is cry that they want to "be there"...be there for the laboring mom, be there for the crying child, be there for grandpa on his deathbed. You don't think people choke all the time, in any given situation, seeing a medical procedure? Don't you realize that if this woman wins, this could well set a precedent regarding family's ability to be involved and present in their loved ones care? You need to think this one through a little bit more..... :stone

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Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
puss? Are we back in OB? :rotfl: (sorry, couldn't resist)

:rotfl: :rotfl: Sorry, I first read that and thought the same thing! Too cute! :p :p

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Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
puss? Are we back in OB? :rotfl: (sorry, couldn't resist)

Typo corrected, since the other word that was there was beyond tacky.

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Specializes in Critical Care.
I don't know how many epidural/spinal/intrathecal anesthesia cases you personally have been the supervising RN for, but if you had done even 1, I'm sure you would realize that it is not the person supporting the moms' responsibility to "keep her still". Whether it is a nurse or the housekeeper.

Also, you need to realize that people faint watching their kids get stitches or shots. Don't laugh, been there, seen it, helped "ease" the parent to the ground. This situation could happen to any family member in any given case. All the public does now is cry that they want to "be there"...be there for the laboring mom, be there for the crying child, be there for grandpa on his deathbed. You don't think people choke all the time, in any given situation, seeing a medical procedure? Don't you realize that if this woman wins, this could well set a precedent regarding family's ability to be involved and present in their loved ones care? You need to think this one through a little bit more..... :stone

The ones I have been in one, and yes there are more than one, were over 6 years ago and back then yes it was to hold the mother still. At least I think that what the guy stickin' the needle in the woman's back meant when he said, "Hold her still so she doesn't jump." Maybe I didn't think it though enough and he really meant was that she could jump all she wanted.

Also, if you have read all my posts you will see that I am only pointing out that I think the case will hinge on the interpretation of the request to the father. I have not once said that I think she should win, nor have I said that I think this should set a precedent one family's invovlement.

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Why are you asking us what you "should" do? You entrusted your health to these people, and they made a mistake that put you in harm's way. You can choose to forgive that error, but the fact is that the law allows patients to seek redress when the trust they've put in healthcare professionals turns out to be misplaced. With our license to practice comes responsibility. Failing in that responsibility doesn't necessarily make us incompetent, but it does mean that we have to answer for our mistakes. Only you can decide what you "should" do, based on your own values and beliefs, and what damage you feel was caused by this mistake.

but was there harm done? If the nurse recognized the problem and fixed it, (the antibiotic issue) and there are no lasting effects then why sue? If everyone should sue over every mistake whether or not harm was done the hospitals would close.

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I'm not an attorney, and I've never been an L&D nurse, but I imagine amongst the questions that will be asked in the course of this suit are:

Had Dad not been available to restrain (something tells me the plaintiffs won't use the word "hug") Mom, would that function have been performed by medical personnel? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes.

If this "freak accident" had happened to a facility employee, would their family be entitled to damages? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes

The man's family is going to be awarded some damages, I'm sure of it.

not trying to give you a hard time mercy but, no one held me when i had mine, and i was just in the l/d for a friend this past sunday and no one held her either, we were told what position to assume and not to move. So the nurse or oher medical professionals would not have held this mom if they were at my hospital. I believe a few others have mentioned this as well. It seems that some sort of standard of care needs to be set, so there isn't so much diversity in what goes on...

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Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.
The man's family is going to be awarded some damages, I'm sure of it.

Probably for the hospital to avoid bad press.

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The difference here would be that holding still for a dressing change will not risk severely injuring them should they move. Letting family be involved in a patient's care is what we are striving for, but sometimes there are things that the family should be excluded from for the safety of all involved.

but nothing happened to mom, apparently his "hold" was fine. He was unable to stomach what he saw and fainted, the same could happen on a dressing change etc... I think it would seem mighty different if he was asked to position the mom and keep her still and then he didn't do it correctly and she was injured. A case could be made there, but that isn't what happened here.

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but what is the evidence that his *assistance* led to his passing out? (in the future will holding someone's hand, or holding someone's legs be considered assistance?) it seems more likely that his presence was the [his] problem, and if they are successful in their lawsuit it could throw us back into the dark ages when fathers were *not allowed* in the delivery room because of a fear that they could pass out. i believe it was a tragic accident.

"assisting" is different, imo, than comforting or being there to support your loved one. i think the crna should have asked for help- of course easy for me to say not knowing what else was going on at the time- seems we're all working short-staffed at times. we want to encourage family involvement in pt care generally, & yes, he should have spoken up if he was squeamish about needles- but people don't & we have to be prepared. sounds like things must have been crazy on that unit to not even have a nurse present to assist w/holding the pt in position for an epidural. we allow parents to go into the or for induction w/pedi pts, but always w/an rn to just be there for the parent- i'd hate to see this type of thing limit that - or limit the presence of family in the delivery room. at any rate, what a tragic/freak accident on what should have been a joyous celebration.

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As a seasoned nurse I don't ask the family to assist with any procedure. As an RN you are solely reliable for what happens to the patient. If that fall had also caused the patient some harm then that would be another problem. There are too many people available to assist with procedures. We never know how a family member is going to respond to procedures. They do not see these things on a daily basis as we do. The CRNA should be held responsible.

I agree.
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Bottom line is that the father was asked to assist in the procedure. If he hadn't been "assisting" there would be no liability if he'd just fainted. I hope the new mother comes out of this filthy stinking rich. She deserves it.

Bottom line he was asked and he agreed to do it. He was not forced. I'd doubt he was told that if he didn't "assist" (he is a support person who basically stands there NOT NOT NOT a participant in a medical procedure), the pt. couldn't have the epidural. I hope you never give an injection, provide information, cough, sneeze, or pass gas at work If so, you could be liable for injuring a pt. or support person since it is concievable that what you do could cause pain, discomfort, or injury, or make some lawsuit happy nut a very rich man or woman. Honestly, doesn't almost everything we do have a risk? If a pt. wants care provided, he or she must also accept that due to foreseen or unforeseen circumstances, that care may do more harm than good. To expect that reasonable precautions are taken and foreseeable circumstances are planned for is certainly what a pt.hould expect when recieving care. To expect perfection and anticipation of even freak complications is unreasonable.

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but nothing happened to mom, apparently his "hold" was fine. He was unable to stomach what he saw and fainted, the same could happen on a dressing change etc... I think it would seem mighty different if he was asked to position the mom and keep her still and then he didn't do it correctly and she was injured. A case could be made there, but that isn't what happened here.

If he had been supporting the mom in the usual manner (letting her lean over on him) he would not have been able to see anything anyway.

This whole thread is getting to be ridiculous. WE are going round and round the same issues.

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