man holding wife still during epidural dies!

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Just read the ap report about a woman in labor at a kaiser hospital. Apparently the anethesia professional (don't know which kind crna, mda or aa) asked the husband to help hold the wife still while the needle was inserted into the epidural space of her back and, he saw the needle going in and fainted, fell over and hit his head, suffered a fatal brain bleed and died 2 days later. Of course the wife is sueing, stating that he was asked to assist the procedure and so "reasonable" care should have been taken to prevent reasonable forseable complications/accidents. My thoughts as a simply a student, is that this is a firviolous lawsuit, and the lawyer that is encouraging her to go forth with this case should be ashamed. Also I am so saddened for this family to have such a joyous event marred and a life gone without warning. I guess to all of you L/D nurses and CRNA's etc... don't ask a family member to help hold the mom still. :uhoh21: What are your takes on this?

Obviously, for this guy, the stranger holding the patient would have worked out better. I don't say that to be glib. There were very real, very forseeable consequences to what this guy was asked to do. A very rare consequence, but not one that couldn't have been forseen. In this day and age, it is important for healthcare providers to CTA. I'm one for erring on the side of caution myself.

My problem with that is this: it is a forseeable consequence that dad could faint at any point in the L&D process (I saw most do it at crowning time). Do we ban dads altogether because we want to cover our butts?

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Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.
My problem with that is this: it is a forseeable consequence that dad could faint at any point in the L&D process (I saw most do it at crowning time). Do we ban dads altogether because we want to cover our butts?

No, because by witnessing a birth in the L&D room, he isn't participating in a medical procedure traditionally performed by trained personnel. No sense banning him from that room just b/c he could faint. He could just as easily slip in the cafeteria. You can't ban people from your facility on the basis of possible injury. You can only take reasonable precautions. We don't even know yet what damages are being asked, so its impossible to say whether this will be an unreasonable lawsuit, but it certainly isn't going to be a frivolous one.

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I do not consider hugging a woman "participating in a medical procedure" either. I have never charted that I participated in epidural insertions when I held women. Cutting the cord seems more like participating in a medical procedure than that and we allow dads to do it.

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Specializes in Obstetrics, M/S, Psych.
I do not consider hugging a woman "participating in a medical procedure" either. I have never charted that I participated in epidural insertions when I held women. Cutting the cord seems more like participating in a medical procedure than that and we allow dads to do it.

Good point. After all, dad could snip off a finger with that sharp medical implement. Here might be some grounds to a case because of letting him participate in a procedure for which he was untrained. This one is a frivolous lawsuit no matter how you look at it. Holding a patient is not participating in a medical procedure. If the epidural went bad and the patient became paralyzed would it have been the dad's fault? Of course not.

He coud have fallen at any point in that hospital and suffered the same injury. The odds of it being fatal were astronomical. Freak accidents happen. We cannot be responsible for everything that may possibly happen. Think of the possibilities of the precautions we'd need to take, if we are going to start doing that. It would be totally insane!

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Specializes in Happily semi-retired; excited for the whole whammy.

I'm not an attorney, and I've never been an L&D nurse, but I imagine amongst the questions that will be asked in the course of this suit are:

Had Dad not been available to restrain (something tells me the plaintiffs won't use the word "hug") Mom, would that function have been performed by medical personnel? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes.

If this "freak accident" had happened to a facility employee, would their family be entitled to damages? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes

The man's family is going to be awarded some damages, I'm sure of it.

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Actually I wasn't "asking" what I should do. It was a hypothetical question. In my case the nurse in question, although grossly negligent, lost her husband several months later and I determined that she suffered far worse than I did. I lived, after all. My point was much the same as yours. Only YOU can decide what to do. The same as the patient in this case but in my mind, blaming this one incident on lawsuit on whether or not a "professional" RN holds the patient during an epidural vs a significant other, assuming of course , that there is a nurse present who is monitoring the entire situation closely, is just plain misguided. Nothing personal regarding either you, MercyTeapot *(nice moniker by the way- would love to hear the hx behind it :) ), or me.....I don't begrudge this woman for suing. A horrible thing happened to her family. Just as I don't begrudge people suing if they feel something horrible as happened, dispite my discomfort that things happen during labor and sometimes not perfectly however hard we try....Believe me, I am perfectly autonomous in my own decisions but perhaps I should begin my posts by mentioning I am throwing a hypothetical question out there .....

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Specializes in Obstetrics, M/S, Psych.
I'm not an attorney, and I've never been an L&D nurse, but I imagine amongst the questions that will be asked in the course of this suit are:

Had Dad not been available to restrain (something tells me the plaintiffs won't use the word "hug") Mom, would that function have been performed by medical personnel? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes.

If this "freak accident" had happened to a facility employee, would their family be entitled to damages? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes

The man's family is going to be awarded some damages, I'm sure of it.

I can't really agree on either point as far as how the court would look at this.

The RN does not usually "hug"/ hold the patient either...most times no one does this. The anesthesiologist has the patient sitting or lying in such a position where anothers' hands on are not necessary, but he can instruct her how to move so he can place the epidural. The anesthesiologist does his thing and the RN's job is to document, do V/S, check O2 sats, monitor baby.

I don't think a family would be entitled to any monetary award if a freak accident as this one occurs at work to an employee. No way.

This whole thread brings up the need for changes needed so lawsuits such as this become a thing of the past. It is so out of control!

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Yesterday at work my telemtry patient and her family were talking about this "story" They said, "what is this world coming to with frivolous lawsuits"

I found it interesting reading this post from nurses and what they thought.

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Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
what if a woman somehow becomes unable to "hold still"? That is what the support person is for, right? Sometimes, huge drops in blood pressure occur, or a mom reacts somehow to being stuck, she is in horrible pain, trying to bear through contractions while being stuck? How responsible can she be at all times during such a procedure? I think that is taking her "responsibility" a bit far. It is OUR responsiblity overall as healthcare professionals, to ensure her safety during a risky procedure (and yes it is still considered high risk) like regional anesthesia placement. Now the significant other? I think that person needs to be able to take care of him or herself, or just leave the room while it's going on. That is only my opinion, I know.

If a woman can not hold still, anesthesia stops the procedure. I've seen in a hundred times. I am certainly not going to be able to hold some 200lb or more woman completely still so that a needle/catheter can be inserted into a tiny space in her back! Of course, if a drop in bp occurs or she starts vomiting, gets faint etc, same thing: the procedure stops....and I am at her side the entire time. Whether or not Dad or some other support person is there; that is irrelevant. It is actually anesthesia's job to ensure a straight spine, correct placement, etc. Patients are given the risks of this procedure well before hand and sign a consent allowing for such. If the pt is so unstable/in pn the epidural can be placed in a sidelying position. Don't get me wrong...I am 100% on board w/assuring pt safety and assist in every (reasonable) way I can, but let's face facts...epidurals are not something "mandated"....it is an elective, requested procedure(for SVD's, of course). They do have to take some responsibility for participating in their care and safety. Anesthesia makes it very clear that it is up to the woman to sit right and stay still. Not to say that I do not offer encouragement, help steady her, etc. We allow support people present as a courtesy...not because the RN needs them there! :stone

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Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
NO.....it is up to the anesthesiologist to make sure the spine is in proper alignment. It is NOT up to the support person or the nurse for that matter.

An epidural is a blind procedure, no matter who holds the patient. The dad fainted. The hospital is not liable for that. If he was taken to the ER and then NOT evaluated properly, that has nothing to do with OB.

Thisis a ridiculous thread as well as a stupid lawsuit. Maybe the patient will not be able to substantiate it.

Thank you! My point exactly!

I, too agree, the support person can not even see what's going on behind the mom...The poor man just got woozy and fainted, tragic, yes, liability of OB staff....no.

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I honestly think people now a days try to get money for everything....However, the biggest argument this woman has, is that the medical staffed asked for a non trained person (the husband) to help hold a patient (his wife). I think she will win, only because of that....and probably because there should have been a trained RN there.

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Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
I'm not an attorney, and I've never been an L&D nurse, but I imagine amongst the questions that will be asked in the course of this suit are:

Had Dad not been available to restrain (something tells me the plaintiffs won't use the word "hug") Mom, would that function have been performed by medical personnel? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes.

If this "freak accident" had happened to a facility employee, would their family be entitled to damages? Answer: Any way you cut it, yes

The man's family is going to be awarded some damages, I'm sure of it.

Actually we don't restrain the mom. She can be in an upright sitting position (preferred) or she can be in a sidelying position. Mom is counseled and consented. The RN offers support and encouragement, monitors vs, charts, etc. The husband's presence was not required.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the comment about the facility employee....we are paid to be there and in attendance....it is voluntary for support persons.....

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