Male nurse kills 40 patients...what do you think?

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 16, 2003

RNnTraining1973, my sincere condolences. It's tough not to bring personal values into nursing.

I wonder what would you say to a nurse who told you "nana's not getting her pain medicine because her bp's too low or her respirations are less than 8", during the end process of her dying. (I'm sure you are too young to remember, but I would be like Shirley McClain in Terms of Endearment screaming at the nurses station "MY NANA'S IN PAIN"!)

Disclaimer: Just in case anyone is wondering, I don't condone mercy kiling and this guy is a murderer. I do however have no problem giving pain medicines at the end of life, even with unstable vital signs (well, they are dying of course their vital signs are unstable. ) for comfort measures. We had this issue a couple of weeks ago, a new nurse came to me and told her her dying patient had MS ordered q1h and her bp was 70/30. I went to see the patient, she was grunting after each respiration, respirations 50! I asked the nurse if she wanted me to give the pain medicine.

night owl · Dec 17, 2003

It is NOT our decision to make. Another article stated he also used Digoxin.

Both my mom and my brother passed away in Somerset Medical Center.

mattsmom81 · Dec 17, 2003

Originally posted by 3rdShiftGuy
I wonder what would you say to a nurse who told you "nana's not getting her pain medicine because her bp's too low or her respirations are less than 8", during the end process of her dying. (I'm sure you are too young to remember, but I would be like Shirley McClain in Terms of Endearment screaming at the nurses station "MY NANA'S IN PAIN"!)

We had this issue a couple of weeks ago, a new nurse came to me and told her her dying patient had MS ordered q1h and her bp was 70/30. I went to see the patient, she was grunting after each respiration, respirations 50! I asked the nurse if she wanted me to give the pain medicine.

Gotta add this: we have to be concerned about legalities as well. If your patient was still a full code, Tweety, I might have a problem with that MS. In my ICU we get quite a few like this, still full code, unstable...FTD....and while I don't necessarily like it, I still have to make the best decision for my patients in order to 'do no harm'. Just having an order for MS doesn't give me carte blanche with it, and over the years I've seen nurses lose their license after a PRN med that caused harm. AND families who tried to blame a nurse for 'killing Granny' after they begged for that final dose of MS, then had mixed feelings afterwards. And suddenly NOBODY is on the side of the nurse who made that comfort measure decision to give the MS. So, IMHO, we gotta be very careful here.

sassynurse78 · Dec 17, 2003

The first month I was a nurse, I had a 78 y/o pt. with cancer. DNR Hospice, and comfort measures only. 30 minutes before my shift ended the family stated that mom seemed uncomfortable and wanted her to have more pain med. She was getting MS 2mg IV qh prn. Her resp were like 5 and her b/p was low but I cannot remember now how low. I explained to the family that if I gave this medication it is very possible that mom would pass away. They were ok with this, I wasn't. I called my DON who told me that it was fine to give the MS , that it was the families choice but to check with the docter.I checked with the dr and he said it was ok. I gave it and she died 6 minutes later. I know how close she was to death, and the chances of her dying within 6 minutes were very high without the med. but I have never ever gotten over the feeling that I killed that woman. The dtr was ok with it and told me not to be upset that I was just keeping her comfortable. I charted that I called the DON and DR and all of that, but I learned that if I am not comfortable with something I will not do it, not because of legal issues, but personal ones.

JailHouseTeer · Dec 17, 2003

Its not my choice to make if they want to end it all let them do it away from where I work.

I have no problem with it that way. I am here to help them the best way that I can.

I have had to work with death row when it was time for their excution and I did what I had to do but I took no part of the death. That is not what I became a nurse for.

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2003

He deserves to be on Death Row without a chance of reprieve

End of story

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2003

Originally posted by mattsmom81
Gotta add this: we have to be concerned about legalities as well. If your patient was still a full code, Tweety, I might have a problem with that MS. In my ICU we get quite a few like this, still full code, unstable...FTD....and while I don't necessarily like it, I still have to make the best decision for my patients in order to 'do no harm'. Just having an order for MS doesn't give me carte blanche with it, and over the years I've seen nurses lose their license after a PRN med that caused harm. AND families who tried to blame a nurse for 'killing Granny' after they begged for that final dose of MS, then had mixed feelings afterwards. And suddenly NOBODY is on the side of the nurse who made that comfort measure decision to give the MS. So, IMHO, we gotta be very careful here.

Agreed.

To me there is no such thing as "comfort measures only" for a patient that is a full code and in ICU. We're lucky, we have a pain management clinic whose MD has privileges at our hospital and we can consult her for cases such as these, if we can talk the docs into it.

I'm talking end of life, very close to death patients. I wouldn't have a problem with sassynurse78's patient above. I would want the same done to myself, and to my family. Is it better to let a patient die of natural causes if they are in severe pain? It's a tough call to answer. Many, many nurses feel as sassynurse78 did (I'm not criticizing your feelings, just saying I might have felt different).

teeituptom, BSN, RN · Dec 17, 2003

Me again

I see a lot of dancing around in here about euthanasia, mercy killings and other moralities.

Bottom line HE KILLED PEOPLE

HE BROKE THE LAW

Answer he belongs on death row

OC_An Khe · Dec 17, 2003

Two points here.

First Teeituptom sums it up precisely. The plea that these were just mercy killings has no bearing. To be euthanasia it has to be the direct request of the patient and or family with much documented discussion of all the aspects of the act and consequences. In my review of the public facts this was never done. Hence he is a stone cold serial murderer trying to justify his killing spree.

Second, virtually every media source(and the start of this thread) described this individual as a male nurse. The linking of the gender to the profession of nurse just furthers the notion that there is a difference between male and female nurses and that the male nurses need to be viewed with suspicion and less trust.

hbscott · Dec 17, 2003

"One disturbed mind is easier to understand than a health care system that allowed Cullen to bounce from one institution to another without detection of homicidal tendencies. "

http://pennlive.com/editorials/expresstimes/index.ssf?/base/news-1/107165724566200.xml

So why are some of our health care systems in trouble? Just follow the money and you will have your answer.

JailHouseTeer · Dec 17, 2003

i agree he had no business taking those lives & i don't see where it makes any difference being male or female both sexes have done it in the name of "mercy" and its been plastered all over the news.

wrong is wrong. killing is killing !

being a nurse gives us no right to end the life of someone else because we fill the are suffering to much or do not have the chance of a "normal" life.

if you take that road then you must pay the price.

barefootlady, ADN, RN · Dec 17, 2003

This guy committed MURDER. He has no defense. He is a serial killer who happened to work as a nurse.

I am very angry that for the next few weeks, working nurses, who really only have the interest of the patient in mind, will be placed under added pressures. A lot of families who have loved ones and friends who are dying will be wondering,"did the nurse do something to hasten their death?"

An earlier poster got it right. Even if we have orders and have checked with the doctor, we sometimes have to decide if we can personally perform an action that will hasten death. If we cannot, then call the supervisor/charge nurse/DON and give them the reason you feel unable/unwilling to perform the task. I have never had negative feed back because I did this .

My goal is to be there for the care, comfort, and needs of the patient. I do not play GOD. I am a Nurse. In my book, that says it all.