Male nurse kills 40 patients...what do you think?

SarahCeleste · Dec 16, 2003

Well, this subject will always be controversial and unfortunately I don't see an end to it in the near future. Because, not only are we dealing with the most taboo issues here i.e. politics and religion but we're also dealing with the quality of life. In my opinion, yes, it is an excruciating thing to watch a terminally ill patient go through the tortuous moments (weeks, months, etc) of dying, but that is not in our hands to decided when they will expire. Only God knows and I'm a firm believer in God's plan and that only He can choose when one shall die. I do think euthanasia is a wonderful concept, but that just won't hold water in the social or religious world. I understand that we take animals out of their misery, but folks, animals and people, regardless of what many want to say, are quite different. (Again, remember, this is just my novice opinion) and unfortunately, I would even feel this way if I had an ailing family member. There is the fact that we can pull the plug (not unlike the Terry Schiavo travesty)---and just not put them back on it, but as for purposely overdosing a client, I do not believe that is ethical and it is beyond our scope, here. Even Doctors, as much as they like to possess the God complex, do not have that decision. No one ever promised this world was going to be easy and that there was going to be no sufferring involved. God does not give someone more than they can handle, regardless the circumstance; whether its financial hardship, physical pain or prolonged dying, it is no MAN's decision on when one shall die. Hope I haven't offended anyone, but again, yeah, there's my two cents. God bless and have a wonderful holiday season.

Tweety, BSN, RN · Dec 16, 2003

Originally posted by SarahCeleste
Well, this subject will always be controversial and unfortunately I don't see an end to it in the near future. Because, not only are we dealing with the most taboo issues here i.e. politics and religion but we're also dealing with the quality of life. In my opinion, yes, it is an excruciating thing to watch a terminally ill patient go through the tortuous moments (weeks, months, etc) of dying, but that is not in our hands to decided when they will expire. Only God knows and I'm a firm believer in God's plan and that only He can choose when one shall die. I do think euthanasia is a wonderful concept, but that just won't hold water in the social or religious world. I understand that we take animals out of their misery, but folks, animals and people, regardless of what many want to say, are quite different. (Again, remember, this is just my novice opinion) and unfortunately, I would even feel this way if I had an ailing family member. There is the fact that we can pull the plug (not unlike the Terry Schiavo travesty)---and just not put them back on it, but as for purposely overdosing a client, I do not believe that is ethical and it is beyond our scope, here. Even Doctors, as much as they like to possess the God complex, do not have that decision. No one ever promised this world was going to be easy and that there was going to be no sufferring involved. God does not give someone more than they can handle, regardless the circumstance; whether its financial hardship, physical pain or prolonged dying, it is no MAN's decision on when one shall die. Hope I haven't offended anyone, but again, yeah, there's my two cents. God bless and have a wonderful holiday season.

You've respectfully stated your opinion and I can appreciate what you have to say.

I'm one who doesn't believe there is a God picking and choosing whose time it is die, when and how.

I will respectully say that I've taken care of dying patients who have had their pain meds reduced or held by well-meaning people. Only to see them moan and respirations increase to 40s or so. I don't think it's playing God to give pain medicine under these circumstances.

I have seroius issues with your statement "No one ever promised this world was going to be easy and that there was going to be no sufferring involved. God does not give someone more than they can handle, regardless the circumstance; whether its financial hardship, physical pain or prolonged dying........."

I'm not "offended", just have issues. I respect your views and your right to have them, so please don't consider this a flame. Just a discussion from another point of view.

Thanks.

Gibbie · Dec 16, 2003

God is the author and finisher of life period. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

tgibson3770 · Dec 16, 2003

Originally posted by a_crftyldy
Not to sound calous or anything, but don't we euthanize animals who are suffering because we fell it is the humane thing to do? Why then do we force people to live with pain and suffering. If a person chooses to die because they don't want to suffer anymore why not respect that wish. Yes, you are always going to have a family member who is going to disagree, but it's not their body, it's their loved one's body and they should be the one who has the say in the matter.

Just putting my two cents worth in.

Intelligence in the making.

hbscott · Dec 16, 2003

This whole incident is very sad. Very sad indeed. Anything that violates trust in the public's eye has long term consequences not easily remedied.

Even if the motives were honorable (which is a debatable point here) the public will only see a "psycho nurse" on a rampage.

Who would of thought that a "male nurse" would be sharing the headlines with Sadaam Hussein.

Sad. Very sad indeed.

-HBS

AndiMac · Dec 16, 2003

HOSPICE
They will give care and provide comfort measures and usually the medication orders are such that the process can be expedited if the Pt and family both feel this is what they want.

I don't think enough patients/families are aware or made aware of the fact that Hospice is around. A lot of these people when getting so close to death, are "snowed" and don't know they are dying or anything else that is going on. Which maybe/may not be the right thing to do. But, if they are so far gone and with so much pain, make them comfortable, without the pain, even if it does stop those last agonizing breaths. I have mixed views, considering my mother is a hospice nurse. I think I'd have to go with "what the MD says, goes." May sound bad on my part, but I have a daughter to raise and am not to fond of the thought of losing my license. As the previous ones before me ... it's not my place to decide who can die and who can't.

LydiaGreen · Dec 16, 2003

I don't believe that God predelicts the moment of your death. First and foremost, God gave each and every one of us FREE WILL, it is what we do with this free will that effects our life and death, and sometimes the lives and deaths of others. You can't tell me that a smoker who averaged three packs a day for twenty years and dies of lung cancer at 45 was going to die at the age of 45 no matter what because God decided it. That 45 year old sealed his/her own fate through free will. (Not picking on the smokers here, I am one). You can't tell me that a 16 year old who dies of an overdose was destined to die at the age of 16... he/she was given free will and made the choice to do drugs which caused their death. God had nothing to do with that. God gave everyone free will to make their own decisions and decide their own fates. If it is true that everything is preordained to happen by God then I guess I would be able to do whatever I wanted because it wouldn't matter anyway?

That nurse wasn't do anyone any favours. From the news articles, it really doesn't look like any of those patients were asking for HIS help. I have seen a cardiac patient where the docs and nurses wanted to do nothing and the family freaked and had him flown out to a bigger centre for treatment. He lived another 8 months. During that eight months, he mended fences with two brothers and an estranged son, he planned his own funeral, he ensured that his will was written in such a way that no one could contest it or challenge it sparing his family from the unfortunate infighting that occurs, he had time to tell his family and friends that he loved them and was proud of them. This man received another 8 months of time to enable him to die at peace even though none of the "experts" thought there should be any intervention. After this experience and a few more like it, I can say positively that no one has the right to decide for anyone else, especially not me. Who am I to judge how much another person's life is worth? Who am I to judge whether a person needs to be "put out of their misery"?

sashibeak · Dec 16, 2003

As nurses we are taught to be ethically and legally correct. We may empathize terribly with our clients, however, we are not God, nor should we ever cross that line.

I read in the Orlando Sentinel today that this nurse was "not too tightly wrapped" and had attempted suicide several times.

lee1 · Dec 16, 2003

Yes, I agree not enough families utilize HOSPICE. However, there are also many patients who are still in the ICUs who may not qualify at that time for hospice precisely.

I think the bottom line is that MDs and RNs need to communicate better with families so that the pt and his family can make an informed decision. I have seen many patients die tortuous deaths (and I do not use this term loosely as any ICU nurse will know) simply because there is some thought to doing "everything possible". We seem to have lost what is the true REALITY.

This communication is an art form which seems to have become lost especially when so many people are involved in a patient's care. The designated attending of record should be having family meetings as soon as a situation seems to be getting out of hand.

Also, maybe ethics committees need to be more informative of what precisely they are capable of doing and nurses need to be informed in how to utilize them.

Care of the chronically ill is also another area where MDs do not necessarilly speak to patients about the true reality of their situations and are forever trying to tell them that maybe there is something new just down the road to give them unrealistic hope.

Very rarely is that really true. Granted we have made many new inroads in prolonging death but what is the real quality of life???

CCU NRS · Dec 16, 2003

I have a few different things to address

1. Third shift guy: Kudos for admitting your beliefs and and sticking to them, even though they are not the same as mine, I do beleive in God I would never try to tell you as Gibbie did that God is blah blah peiod. I believe in freedom of choice and of religion.

To Quote Morpheus from Matrix 2 and this goes both ways not Just I believe in God and you don't have to believe but also I don't believe.

The Commander says "but Morpheous not everyone believes the prophecy as you do"

Morpheous says "My beliefs do not require them to"

2. to andimac I am sorry If I gave the wrong impression about my thoughts on hospice. I did not mean to say that they would basically euthanize I meant they would get pain control orders sufficient to prevent further suffering and keep the Pt comfortable as long as the family had said all goodbyes and did not require the Pt to remain awake and coherent.

3. leel brings up something that we in my unit were discussing just the other day. Full code status and doing everything that can be done on people that are in bad shape and have little or know quality of life. Our discussion was however if we should begin letting families stay in the room during the code. If you will notice that ACLS now recommends this. We discussed the reasoning behind this and most of us feel that if family members see all the things that are going on they may change their minds and decide to let things run their coorifice and put an end to the code. Other hand we were a bit concerned about having a nonmedical person in a room where nurses and doctors go through this daily and sometimes deal with these situations through humor or sometimes unprofessional seeming behavior. We are all just a little afraid that some impropriety may slip through if families begin to stay in rooom during the code. Presently we are working codes until they basicaly look unreversable and then the Doc will go speak to the family and if they (family) want to bring them back to see that everything is being done and explain that at this time it seems that to continue is less than hopeful shall we say.

Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN · Dec 16, 2003

People's religious and personal beliefs are their own, everyone has the right to say what they feel.

Religion is beside the point though, we're talking about someone who took it upon themselves to decide someone else's fate/path and whether that's right or wrong for anyone to do.

(to no one in particular)

CCU NRS · Dec 16, 2003

Originally posted by LPN2Be2004
People's religious and personal beliefs are their own, everyone has the right to say what they feel.

Religion is beside the point though, we're talking about someone who took it upon themselves to decide someone else's fate/path and whether that's right or wrong for anyone to do.

be very clear, I believe that each person should be allowed to decide that for themselves. NO I don't think it is anyone elses right unless the person is non-responsive and has mad their wishes very clear and named a healthcare proxy to make these decisions.