Male modesty double standard

middleager · Oct 1, 2014

Karou, I am not sure since your comment came after mine if you think I am a multiple, if so I can assure you I have a single account, and as far as I know do not have a split personality...but I will check with my alter ego to confirm. Small attempt at humor there. I understand your comments, some posters here do get pretty aggressive in the issue and seem to be obsessed and locked into an opinion that will not be changed. I think the OP and some of those that follow become so passionate because they read many provider post to say "This does not happen". It does not exist period when in fact it appears it does at some level, be it small. Their reaction is not that different than the provider who is upset that they are being labeled due to the actions of a few. If you read the majority of posts they take the opinion it does not happen, does not exist. As a male I can tell you it does but is not rooted in malice or uncaring, nor have I experienced anything as blatant as presented here. It is as Esme12 said, it is what it is. Would it really be logical to expect in a profession, any profession, so dominated by one gender that there would not be some level of this? Toss societal history in and it becomes how could it not. Would anyone expect fire fighters, police departments, the military not to have a male bias? Look at what women are dealing with in those professions. While those examples are at the employee level, it has to flow down in this case to the patient level. Consider the example Esme12 provided, one has to agree the safety of patient and provider is paramount, however consider when it came to female patient/suspects the effort was made for same gender police, males whoever. Take it a step further, if safety is paramount, and an officer is needed to possibly restrain them...would you not want the stronger officer whom is more likely to be physically more able to do this? Would that most likely not be a male. So if it is safety, putting a male officer on either gender may in general be safer due to physical strength. I understand that is really micro inspection and I don't think that is the case, but if you look at it logically, surely you can see that some of the logic applied is hard for some folks to understand and accept. The double standard isn't always blatant and in your face as many women can attest, it is none the less still discrimination, intended or not. Recognizing it's existence is the first step. Doesn't mean you have to take dramatic steps, but keeping your eyes open is key. To be perfectly honest, I never saw the things my wife faced until I had two daughters, then all the subtle things she experienced daily became more evident and more evident to me. All one can ask is keep an open mind and eyes to its existence, the same we ask the other side of this.

banterings · Oct 1, 2014

I have never said "all providers are" or "all police are," but it seems that most are denying or minimalising this. My examples are the most extreme because there is no debate that they are morally, ethically, and legally wrong. It is impossible to measure a person's intent, you can only measure actions.

I have no issues with female providers. Again, because of millions of years of evolution, i assume that female providers would be more caring, gentle, sensitive to my needs, and willing to address the emotional aspects as well as the physical. Sadly, too many are desensitized and have lost these qualities.

There are many that do retain those qualities. Perhaps the best example of this is (and I have seen it more than once) is a nurse holding a patient's hand when going through a painful, difficult, or humiliating procedure. They continue their tasks with one hand and have even called for another nurse/CNA/etc. to assist or hold the patient's hand because they recognize that compassion is a drug more powerful than Valium.

I also noticed that there was no comments made when I stated:

psu_213, I do not find "The member Palace" offensive, it is quite funny.

But I ask you, what if they referred to obstetrics department by a woman's genitals?

This is benign and not (IMHO) offensive. But the question is why the double standard and why do we accept it?

I also gave an anthropological explanation why there is a double standard in society as a whole. That double standard has long been accepted as "chivalry." It only became immoral, unethical, and illegal when it was used to deny people their rights, whether it be opportunities for women or modesty for men. I also explained how men tend to hold a higher regard to women just by our upbringing.

I noticed that nobody addressed any of these.

I too say kudos to Esme12 for admitting that a problem does exist.

Yes there is a double standard. You know it exists I know it exists...it is what it is.

By Esme12's own words, it is more than "on occasion."

Unfortunately "it is what it is," is NOT acceptable. Imagine if women were told this in regards to their choice of gender in healthcare.

Somebody tell me why "it is what it is," IS acceptable? Does it matter at all if the patient finds "it is what it is" acceptable?

Again, THANK YOU Esme12 for your honesty!!!

Please understand the frustration that those of us who find this completely unacceptable deal with. Esme12's first post stated:

"Nurses try to preserve the privacy of EVERY PATIENT regardless of their legal status or gender. We protect the female as much as the male."

NINE pages later we finally get:

Yes there is a double standard. You know it exists I know it exists...

That is the point of this whole thread; the denial of the double standard. If it was acknowledged, then it would have to be dealt with. If you know there is a problem, then there is NO plausible deniability (by upper management and the corporation).

Just as we all know that it exists, we also know that it is a systematic problem that administrators wish to sweep under the rug because it would cost them their bonuses an Big Hospital Corp. to fix it. Most people in a healthcare facility with a stethoscope and walk the floor are caring and compassionate. They work in a system that punishes them for interfering with efficiency. Healthcare has become an assembly line. The same problems seen in assembly line workers are present in providers today: apathy, burnout, high job DISsatisfaction, anger, depression....

When you get to the point in management where a person no longer carries a stethoscope, decisions are made in terms of profit and loss. Big corporations look at the cost, human beings are factored in as a dollar figure. Don't believe me, I will point to one of the most egregious examples of this, and it will not be in the healthcare industry.

The Ford Pinto (link here). Ford did a cost-benefit analysis of paying death/injury claims versus a recall to fix a bolt on the bumper. Ford in an internal memo estimated that the problem could be fixed through a $13 fix, but as this would amount to spending more than $200,000 per estimated life saved, this would be too much (in Ford's opinion by valuing a human life at less than $200,000).

I think that there are further repercussions to this debate too. I think human dignity is highly undervalued. Again, an extreme example: look at people with certain cancers. They would rather die with dignity, alert, surrounded by loved ones in their own home rather than get an extra year in the hospital with tubes coming out every part of the body.

There has been great resistance to this because "saving the life" has always been the primary goal of healthcare. Hospice and dying with dignity are a recent change in the paradigm of healthcare.

When the subjects of modesty, dignity, gender choice are brought up, it is not to berate anyone, it is to make everyone achieve their potential and make healthcare better.

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind. --Mahatma Gandhi

If the goal was to punish every provider who has allowed a lapse in patient dignity, there would be no providers left (a blind world). The goal is to fix the problem, but that can't be done until it is acknowledged.

Finally, I have to ask Karou, is that your professional diagnosis and recommendation?

Can I get a referral?

middleager · Oct 1, 2014

Let me play devils advocate, it is what it is while maybe not acceptable is understandable. While we may get a little self righteous and demand others, in this case nurses stand up and fight for right, we all at times compromise our ethics because it is what it is. I can recall to many times that I did not resist when friends made racist comments, at times I laughed at racist jokes even when I knew it was wrong, I observed wrongs and did not intervene, why do we expect these folks to throw themselves under the bus? Not trying to put words in Esme12's mouth, but they didn't say it was OK, they said it was what it was. I recall watching 4 Georgia state petrolmen ruthlessly harass a young black male at one of the first space shuttle launches in Fla. To this day it haunts me that I did not intervene on his behalf. To this day it sickens me to think about it, and I did nothing. Does not mean I condoned it, hope I would act different today, but it was what it was, I didn't know what to do under the circumstances. There were 4 of them, they were cops, they were bigger than I, honestly I was afraid of the consequences. I think this has been a constructive thread at times as hopefully it opens the eyes to some that the double standard does/may exist, and it is OK to recognize it and not feel you have to be the Rosa Parks of the ER, and on the other side hopefully other realize things are not always as simple as they seem and be slow to judge. On a side note, got a private note from (f) and wanted to say thanks for the clarification. I am as my daughter says e-paired or I would respond privately as well.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Oct 1, 2014

It is what it is...is by NO MEANS saying that abhorrent behaviors amongst ANY population is acceptable. This post started out from a non nurse who observed things by a STUDENT, which can be easily misunderstood, may not be as they seem. That there are certain necessities in the care of patients that don't translate well visually to the non medical community. This is a site that is mostly populated by nurses who care for and protect under any circumstance. We sacrifice our time with families, our health, and risk our personal safety all for the benefit of complete strangers; who, in reality could care less about us or our families. WE WILL DEFEND our profession especially when being painted with an inaccurate brush stroke. We are proud, intelligent, educated professionals. To indicate anything else is insulting.

The only financial decisions that are made are at the cost of nurses and inadequately staffed floors. Nurses stand up to the task and diligently care of our patients and protect their rights. Hospitals do not make cost benefit analysis about acceptable patient harm. The nurses will kill themselves to take the best care possible of her patients.

We work around the clock, 365 days a year. We work holidays and weekends. We miss our children's games and concerts for an increasingly unappreciative public. We are physicals and verbally abused on a daily basis and these patients are NOT always confused or under the influence of an intoxicating substance. I have been hit, kicked, bit, slapped, punched, choked. I have had human excrement thrown at me and profanities shouted at the top of their lungs and been called everything under the blue moon. Consider the nurses and doctors who cared for the Ebola patient before diagnosis who are now locked away from society, and their families, in quarantine because they CARED for a complete stranger. Will they even ever receive a thank you? Probably not.

I said there is a double standard I NEVER said it is acceptable. There has ALWAYS been a double standard. To tell a female dominated profession that we value something less than males when females have been considered the property of men, denied the right to vote, and to this very day make less than men when performing that same job is demeaning and a perfect example of a double standard.

banterings Imagine if women were told this in regards to their choice of gender in healthcare.

Women have had no choices in their healthcare for many years as women were NOT admitted to medical schools and still face discrimination in medical schools from the "good ole boys" club. We are accustomed to being given little to no choice...because we are women. Women are constantly minimized and marginalized because we are woman and therefor any "vague" complaint is discarded because we are...women. In the future I would appreciate my words to not be taken out of context. My admission that there is a double standard IN SOCIETY is by no means an admission of any guilt or acceptance of any participation in your perception of problem actually existing.

middleager Consider the example Esme12 provided, one has to agree the safety of patient and provider is paramount, however consider when it came to female patient/suspects the effort was made for same gender police, males whoever

As I stated we are also guided by the law and hospital policy to allow females, whenever possible, a female to perform intimate intrusive exams and have a female present to prevent historical assaultive behavior at the hands of...guess who? Men. Men...sadly like women who wish female to perform their pelvic exam after a sexual assault by...guess who? a male....end up with a male because a female is not available. Men are also not always granted their wished for a male nurse to perform certain intrusive procedures because there are no males available in the building. It is what it is.

banterings I think that there are further repercussions to this debate too. I think human dignity is highly undervalued. Again, an extreme example: look at people with certain cancers. They would rather die with dignity, alert, surrounded by loved ones in their own home rather than get an extra year in the hospital with tubes coming out every part of the body.

As a non medical person I understand that you do not know the intricacies of patient care. I have been a nurse for 35 years and have been providing death with dignity from the very first moment I became a nurse.

Medicine over all is full of honorable, intelligent professionals. Out of the millions of patients seen every day in hospitals and emergency department all over the US to point out rare anecdotal cases that are abhorrent by sick twisted individuals is a strongman argument at nest.

Nurses and other medical professionals I have encountered over a illustrious 35 year career have been the consummate professional.

banterings · Oct 1, 2014

middleager,

If this was to me, I am not saying anyone condones the actions, treatment, etc. I ask why is "it is what it is" accepted as the answer. Just as your racial insights of, "honestly I was afraid of the consequences" was your answer, I am sure that is the answer of many people here.

I recognize that the problem is systematic and nurses are put in this situation by administration. In my Twana Sparks example, I bold typed where the whistleblower had her privileges revoked.

I think that part of the problem is that just as your decision haunts you, admitting "it is what it is" will haunt them.

Let me use your example; that poor guy harassed by the police, what do you think his view of law enforcement is? There is a certain hypocrisy to say "I care about all my patients" and then say there is a double standard and "it is what it is."

I have also seen in more than one physician association state in their guidelines, when the patient stands up for their dignity (the term modesty is usually used), the patient is labelled as mentally ill and sent to seek treatment elsewhere. Depending who Karou direct the comment to, you, me, we(?), we were labelled as mentally ill.

Why did it take Esme12 nine pages of discussion before admitting the problem exists?

I take the view that you are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

I also know that we are all human, and we make mistakes. It is how you handle those mistakes. The culture of healthcare teaches us not to admit to mistakes. How many training sessions have we sat through put on by the malpractice/liability insurance carrier where we are told (maybe not overtly, but you know...) never to admit to being at fault? Tell the person "I'm sorry that you feel that way" (as if it were their own fault for having those feelings). Acknowledge their feelings, never give them something that they can use against you (Big Hospital Corp).

I am sure we all know one instance when someone actually said "I am sorry, that should never have happened" to a patient and they get thrown under the bus by Big Hospital Corp. That nurse said "I'm sorry," that is an admission that he/she did something wrong and is guilty, we have to revoke their privileges here immediately.

Karou was right about one thing, my views are partly due to how my dignity was disregarded in a healthcare setting. It is a slap in the face to deny that the problem exists when I experienced it first hand. In the civil rights movement, even today it is a slap in the face to say there is no racism because we have a black president and that "I am not racist." Just like patient dignity issues, racism still happens.

Part of my views are also from things that I had seen and did nothing about at the time because I too was was afraid of the consequences. Yes, I assign a certain amount of fault to myself because by an omission of an action by me, someone else's dignity was disregarded.

I am sure that you (middleager) would agree that the best way to deal with that past bad experience is to take it and make something positive out of it. Let it be transformative. I would bet everything that I have, I you ever saw somebody being racially discriminated, you would speak up. Perhaps it is never wanting that "haunting feeling," perhaps it is (feels like) atonement, I don't know, but I will never be silent again.

middleager · Oct 1, 2014

The hard part about electronic exchanges is it is hard to read intent at times. I am having a little difficulty grasping your thought here Esme12 but I think we are close to being on the same page just speaking a little different language. I would guess that the policy of requiring a female POLICE OFFICER attend female suspects is more a hospital or perhaps even police policy than a matter of law. You are following that policy, as would be expected. Lets face it, while the issues we are discussing here are serious to a degree they are nothing like Blacks faced prior and through the civil rights movements. I mean they were beaten and lynched. Women were not given the right to vote, and if a woman was married to a wife beater, not only was it ignored some justified it. So in lets keep this in perspective.

Further I agree that the double standard exists both ways in society, and in many areas of work including medicine. My point of using your quote was the thought process that it was right to provide same gender police for women, but not for men is an obvious example of a double standard. That double standard was not set by nurses, it was set by either police or hospital admin. not to be malicious. While one can justify it with sexual assault, you do so by using that broad brush on all males that providers do not want applied to them by the few bad apples.

Society in general does downplay modesty in men, just as it at one time widely held untrue and inaccurate views of women and African Americans. That stereotype to some degree is transferred to the medical system through policy and practice. Again it does not make providers bad people for how it plays out. Historically women and minorities have been treated far worse, no one can logically debate that. I also find it impossible to argue that while things are better, they still face more than I as a white male. It does not however make a double standard against males, even white males right. Wrong is wrong regardless of who and the degree.

The double standard is wrong, that does not mean providers are responsible for it. If the policy is female police for female patients, doesn't matter for men, that is what you as would expect a provider to do. But it doesn't make the incident right anymore than it makes you wrong. Nor does what happens to others be they male or female in other areas justify this as a who has it worse mentality provides no winners. While I understand the argument it is OK to discriminate because some men assault women, and further the majority of abuse are men on women, does society say it is OK for stores to shadow Black males or police to pull over Black males more because statistically the highest rate of crime is among Black Males?

We as a society said this is not acceptable so it should not be acceptable to apply to a male in the medical setting. No doubt as you stated there are occasions where providers cannot provide same gender for patients of either gender. That just is not possible. No doubt in my mind women and minorities have had it worse in the past and continue to face more challenges than white males. But once again, when it happens to a white male, as appears to be the case here, it is no less wrong. Not sure if I explained that any better, I do agree 100% caregivers are among the best of the best in our society, they have that little extra heart that makes them want to do what they do.

You should be offended and defend your fellow caregivers and profession when someone wants to paint you with the broad brush of unethical for the actions of a few. You should be offended when someone says because you do your job as instructed you are a bad or uncaring person. I agree you should not be EXPECTED to put yourself at risk either physically or professionally for the sake of addressing something like institutional discrimination i.e. the double standard. I agree with you 100% on those points, just saying none of this makes the double standard right, regardless of who causes it, regardless of how small it is. But to lay that all on providers ignores the reality of the situation.

As you said, it is what it is.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Oct 1, 2014

I think you and I are essentially agreeing. I was also addressing banterings. I agree double standard exist but I have to be honest I have not seen patients right to privacy violated in the manner described by the OP nor by the police. It is not just for the patients dignity to cover the patient and curtains pulled during codes/trauma alerts for there are children present in the ED and it is a liability for the facility, and me for that matter, to "expose" the children to inappropriate situations.

The nurses that posted here were not defending the action of the staff described in the first post...however in the eyes of a student or non medical personnel there are actions, treatments, and interventions that can be easily misinterpreted by a casual observer. I understand that the casual observer if they observe a patient take down with the assistance of police can appear extreme...but in 100% of my experience it is 100% necessary

Nurses and other medical personnel are, for the majority, protective of patients, their rights, and their privacy. Those who are not should be prosecuted, possibly jailed, and have their licenses removed.

There are double standards...when they are unjust I have every confidence that an overwhelming majority of healthcare personnel WILL step in and stop/report the activity. I have personally admonished anyone who is outta line.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Oct 1, 2014

middleager,
If this was to me, I am not saying anyone condones the actions, treatment, etc. I ask why is "it is what it is" accepted as the answer. Just as your racial insights of, "honestly I was afraid of the consequences" was your answer, I am sure that is the answer of many people here.
I recognize that the problem is systematic and nurses are put in this situation by administration. In my Twana Sparks example, I bold typed where the whistleblower had her privileges revoked.
I think that part of the problem is that just as your decision haunts you, admitting "it is what it is" will haunt them.
Let me use your example; that poor guy harassed by the police, what do you think his view of law enforcement is? There is a certain hypocrisy to say "I care about all my patients" and then say there is a double standard and "it is what it is."
I have also seen in more than one physician association state in their guidelines, when the patient stands up for their dignity (the term modesty is usually used), the patient is labelled as mentally ill and sent to seek treatment elsewhere. Depending who Karou direct the comment to, you, me, we(?), we were labelled as mentally ill.
Why did it take Esme12 nine pages of discussion before admitting the problem exists?
I take the view that you are either part of the problem or part of the solution.
I also know that we are all human, and we make mistakes. It is how you handle those mistakes. The culture of healthcare teaches us not to admit to mistakes. How many training sessions have we sat through put on by the malpractice/liability insurance carrier where we are told (maybe not overtly, but you know...) never to admit to being at fault? Tell the person "I'm sorry that you feel that way" (as if it were their own fault for having those feelings). Acknowledge their feelings, never give them something that they can use against you (Big Hospital Corp).
I am sure we all know one instance when someone actually said "I am sorry, that should never have happened" to a patient and they get thrown under the bus by Big Hospital Corp. That nurse said "I'm sorry," that is an admission that he/she did something wrong and is guilty, we have to revoke their privileges here immediately.
Karou was right about one thing, my views are partly due to how my dignity was disregarded in a healthcare setting. It is a slap in the face to deny that the problem exists when I experienced it first hand. In the civil rights movement, even today it is a slap in the face to say there is no racism because we have a black president and that "I am not racist." Just like patient dignity issues, racism still happens.
Part of my views are also from things that I had seen and did nothing about at the time because I too was was afraid of the consequences. Yes, I assign a certain amount of fault to myself because by an omission of an action by me, someone else's dignity was disregarded.
I am sure that you (middleager) would agree that the best way to deal with that past bad experience is to take it and make something positive out of it. Let it be transformative. I would bet everything that I have, I you ever saw somebody being racially discriminated, you would speak up. Perhaps it is never wanting that "haunting feeling," perhaps it is (feels like) atonement, I don't know, but I will never be silent again.

I am very sorry for your personal experience. I apologize for the carelessness of one person. It is in no way an admission of guilt. I act as my conscience and morals dictate. I am 100% protective of my patients privacy and dignity.

If you go to post 11 page 2 I believe I admitted the double standard exists

Yes there is a double standard for female patients will get a female officer called for that officer to be with the female...males get whomever...it is what it is.

Therefor your statement is not accurate that it took me to the 9th page to acknowledge that the double standard exists in society and to some extent healthcare. Admitting there is a double standard in this world is NOT acknowledging that healthcare providers/personnel are negligent with patient dignity and privacy.

IN 35 years in nursing at the bedside...in the emergency department and trauma flight. I have nothing about my patient care that "haunts" me. There are patients that I cared for and the situations of their deaths that haunt me. How I cared for them is the BEST of my ability...no regrets, no doubts.

banterings · Oct 1, 2014

ESME12, I am sorry that I took your comment out of context.

I am also sorry for how people treated you. None of that is acceptable. Whether you are trying to help them or not, every person should be treated with dignity. Are these people the outliers or the norm? I have to believe that you can tell a thousand stories of patients who appreciated the way that you treated them for every one bad story.

I agree with you about the "good ole boys" club. Women are making progress, I saw a figure that 64% of medical school students (physician) are female.

As for sexual assaults, I find this abhorrent. There are reasons that (an estimated) 40% of assaults are never reported, gender choice being one.

A very good friend volunteers for Doctors without Borders, when he takes his trips I am one of three people who gather up supplies, "shake down" pharma reps, hit up independent practices, and so on. I appreciate what those people are doing.

I live by "do unto others as you would have done to you."

Hospitals do not make cost benefit analysis about acceptable patient harm.

Medicare and insurance companies do, and force hospitals to live within those parameters.

The only financial decisions that are made are at the cost of nurses and inadequately staffed floors.

That is my point exactly. If hospitals were properly staffed (at a realistic level), there would be almost no issues of gender choice.

I have never disparaged anyone in the healing arts. I also hold women in a high regard. Your implications"paint" ALL MEN "with an inaccurate brush stroke" that we value women less. I hold women in a high regard and I know many other me who do as well; staring with my father, my brother...

There apparently is enough abuse in the healthcare system that the Joint Commission had to craft a "Code of Conduct" (that defines acceptable and disruptive behaviors) mainly as a response to the way physicians treated nurses. There are a number of threads on this topic here on allnurses (link here:)

Please do not make assumptions about me or my life. Making assumptions about me involves "deficit thinking."

The problem with "rare anecdotal cases" is that one person can affect the lives of thousands. The case of Dr. Nikita A. Levy of Johns Hopkins involves 7000 women. This is just an example how 1 person can affect the lives of thousands in healthcare, it is not to say anyone condones this behavior or it is the norm.

Dignity belongs to all people: patient, nurses, physicians....

You stated:

...for an increasingly unappreciative public. We are physicals and verbally abused on a daily basis and these patients are NOT always confused or under the influence...

I am not going to cite studies or rebuke you in any way, but I ask you (and anyone else who feels this way): Why do think the public feels this way? I don't need science, I want your experiences, your observations, your feelings on this subject. I know why you feel that way, by the actions toward you.

Finally you just stated:

Women have had no choices in their healthcare for many years as women were NOT admitted to medical schools and still face discrimination in medical schools from the "good ole boys" club. We are accustomed to being given little to no choice...because we are women. Women are constantly minimized and marginalized because we are woman and therefor any "vague" complaint is discarded because we are...women.

Please clarify so that I do not take this out of context, are you referring to healthcare or society here?

middleager · Oct 2, 2014

Esme12, thanks for the comments and clarification. I really think these discussions could be very productive if both "sides" could communicate on a more rationale level. The lack of discussion often leads to unneeded suffering, accusations, and animosity between people who should be working together. To your point I read a post where MD (male) was challenged on why he had to have a nurse (female) present for a vasectomy when all she did was stand there. The MD said when ever I cut anything I have back up who is also a witness. When pushed that it was minor and he could do it himself he said I am not willing to put my lisc. at risk after investing so much time and money in it. I do the prep myself, drape them so only a small square is exposed, then call the nurse in, that is my contribution to accommodating. After I thought about it, couldn't argue. Now perhaps there might be other things but once he explained it made sense. My mother passed in a hospital after getting up in the middle of the night under medication and fell, vomited, and aspirated back into her lungs. The staff was obviously distraught and evasive as we sat with her during her last hours. Later I was told this is a cardinal sin in the hospital for someone to fall and the root of many lawsuits. To me, it was a tragic accident that happened. I didn't blame them and understood but apparently it is common for people to blame the caregiver and seek legal action. Working with the specter of legal action creates protocols that many on the outside do not understand. When patients are under stress, embarrassed and receive responses that seem to deny these issues exist of perhaps at times make them feel like they are the problem they push back, at times to aggressively. Thank you for the conversation and insight. The more I know the more I appreciate.

psu_213, BSN, RN · Oct 2, 2014

Pretty obvious that this discussion is not going anywhere. I'm out...

psu_213, BSN, RN · Oct 2, 2014

Pretty obvious that this discussion is not going anywhere. I'm out...

Oh, and one more thing…isn't about time we put an end to this silly discussion, before it really gets ridiculous.