Male modesty double standard

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SionainnRN

914 Posts

Specializes in Emergency Room, Trauma ICU.

There is no point in getting a urine sample for alcohol level, nor do I know of any hospital that even checks urine for alcohol. Breath and blood are the gold standard.

And for the last time: THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE IN EVERY PROFESSION, THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE ENTIRE PROFESSION BAD!! Why can't you understand that? I'm seriously beginning to think you have a weird obsession with police and might need profession help. Seriously.

Halfpt

8 Posts

I've tried really hard to remain respectful; is it too much to expect the same? Just a public member and reluctant patient who on a couple of occasions experienced healthcare administered by female nurses (not ER) and came away from those experiences feeling like some lower life form; like my thoughts and feelings didn't matter in the least. I truly believe you provide for your patients privacy/dignity to the best of your ability (regardless of gender) and never claimed or insinuated the entire profession is bad. We pay exorbitant fees for healthcare in this country and we're all entitled to being treated with dignity and respect. Many of us (read the patient blogs of Dr Sherman or Dr Bernstein) feel that there is indeed a double standard practiced with regards to privacy, dignity, and modesty between male and female patients. Sadly, some of the comments expressed here reinforces that perception.

Jason_K

2 Posts

There is no double standard. No one, other than the op, has said that its okay to have a pt undressed and vulnerable, no matter what their gender.

You might want to read some of the posts a bit closer.

Male patients that are involved in trauma tend to have a higher incidence of violence against the staff AND a danger that whatever caused the conflict that the person who shot them comes to finish it off in the ED. Curtains are left open most of the time to ensure the patients and staff safety.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

Why do I feel like I am talking to the same person? :down:

You might want to read some of the posts a bit closer.
Are you in healthcare in the Emergency department? It is a statistical analysis
In the United States, men are much more likely to be incarcerated than women. Nearly 9 times as many men (5,037,000) as women (581,000) had ever at one time been incarcerated in a State or Federal prison at year end 2001. [1].

Murder and Gender In 2011, the United States Department of Justice compiled homicide statistics in the United States between 1980 and 2008.[1] That study showed the following:

Offenders

  • Males committed the vast majority of homicides in the United States at that time, representing 90% of the total number of offenders.[1]
  • Young adult black males had the highest homicide offending rate compared to offenders in other racial and sex categories.[1]
  • White females of all ages had the lowest offending rates of any racial or age groups.[1]
  • The overall offending rates for both males and females have declined since 1990.[1]
  • Of children under age 5 killed by a parent, the rate for biological fathers was slightly higher than for biological mothers.[1]
  • However, of children under 5 killed by someone other than their parent, 80% were killed by males.[1]

Victims

  • Victimization rates for both males and females have been relatively stable since 2000.[1]
  • Males were more likely to be murder victims (76.8%).[1]
  • Females were most likely to be victims of domestic homicides (63.7%) and sex-related homicides (81.7%)[1]
  • Males were most likely to be victims of drug- (90.5%) and gang-related homicides (94.6%).[1]

middleager

115 Posts

SionainnRN I was referring to a comment made by Esme12 back on page 2(?). "Yes there isa double standard for female patients will get a female officer called for that officer to be female...males get whomever...it is what it is". I really am not trying to be disrespectful nor in anyway say the depth of the comparisons is the same when I make the following comments. It really is the tale of the three blind men describing an elephant. And this is not intended to be a blanket comment as this thread has many different thoughts. We as a society have stated it is unaccepted to profile Middle Easterners on planes, African American Males in crime, because while there may be numbers that lead to the suggestion, we assume each person is an individual and should not be labeled. We have decades between the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement and yet stereotypes and issues remain. Is it such a stretch to think the same exists for males in medical settings. For generations it was assumed males just did not have the same level of concern or perhaps deserve the same level of respect. While long gone are the days of forced naked swimming in school, long lines of naked men for military physicals, etc. There is now realization that equal means equal and an effort to correct past transgressions but it takes time and there may always be residual. I have two daughters and have heard and experienced mainly men but some women making truly sexist comments. I took an attorney to a school board meeting to explain title 13 and the ramifications of not giving my daughters and their friends equal gym time for basketball. It is there, in a field so predominately female, is it really that unlikely that a double standard at some degree would exist without any intent or realization.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
There is no point in getting a urine sample for alcohol level, nor do I know of any hospital that even checks urine for alcohol. Breath and blood are the gold standard.

And for the last time: THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE IN EVERY PROFESSION, THAT DOES NOT MAKE THE ENTIRE PROFESSION BAD!! Why can't you understand that? I'm seriously beginning to think you have a weird obsession with police and might need profession help. Seriously.

It is entirely possible that they wanted a UDA...urine for drugs of abuse to indicate under the influence. I know that facility and I'll bet that there is more to the story. It is a good facility with strict policies. I think I will check with my sources.

The other case mentioned in the same state the officer obtained a search warrant

According to reports on WLWT the man, Jamie Lockard, 53, was arrested in Lawrenceberg, Indiana (home to Hollywood Casino) on suspicion of drunk driving. He blew under the legal limit, but that was not enough for officer Brian Miller who obtained a search warrant and went to the hospital where Lockard was strapped to a gurney and forcibly catheterized. His blood was also forcibly drawn.
This is where nurses in the ED are ruled by the law. If they refuse essentially they can be charged with obstruction of Justice. The Emergency Department is a difficult place to work

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
Actually, according to the ABA via SCOTUS (at least for DWI), they need a warrant or consent for blood tests and I can't imagine urinalysis is any different.

DWI suspects can't automatically be subjected to blood tests without a warrant, SCOTUS rules

This is NOT what the thread is about. It is about preserving modesty of patients....the legalities of obtaining specimens are another issue altogether. In MOST...I repeat MOST cases.... if a patient refuses to submit to a test under police custody a warrant is necessary (depending on the state) for a specimen to be admissible in court. A refusal usually carries a penalty of automatic license suspension and some include jail time. However, if the patient is a trauma and those are routinely done on all trauma patients in the course of their care the chart can be subpenaed.

This thread however is about patient modesty.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN

1 Article; 20,908 Posts

Specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.
After reading the 8 pages of comments there is a lot digest. I question some of the accounts as well, understand perspective plays a lot in interpretation, sometimes we embellish to make our point. One thing however is present in many of the posts is avoidance of the main issue, is there a double standard. Early on one poster admitted the double standard, that they would get a female officer for female patients, males got whoever was available, that is just the way it is. That is more to the core of the issue here. Kudos for putting it out there.

Many defended or justified providers, some police, a few indicated they were considerate of both genders. But few addressed the issue, why would "it is just the way it is" be acceptable? If the police officer is a professional and is justified being present, why would that not apply to male officers and female patients. It is understood the gender disparity in providers creates issues for some wanting same gender. But in that post, it was not a situation of could not, it was an intentional effort for females,and lack of concern or perhaps effort for males, and no one had a problem with that's just the way it is.

Does that not indicate a double standard that someone would so plainly say yes we do this...and no one reacted negatively? Should not a double standard be wrong regardless of who it applied for or against? That is the issue on this post.

Yes there is a double standard. You know it exists I know it exists...it is what it is. However.... In spite of what my personal opinion might or might not be, I am governed by hospital policy, standards of practice, and the judicial system/laws.

The subject of this whole post is suspect as the OP contradicts himself.

caregiver111 Even with female pts the curtains were left open
For in your first few posts you stated that the curtains were always closed on females.

caregiver111 If the patient was a female the curtains would be immediately closed and kept closed until the entire trauma procedure was complete.
caregiver111 When I say watch this procedure I am referring to male patients since they always close the curtains for female patients and always leave them n for a male patients.
With the inconsistencies that are present.... I am not not sure about the validity of this thread.

liberated847

504 Posts

Specializes in CEN, CFRN, PHRN, RCIS, EMT-P.

Agree Esme! Shut it down!!! Wohoooo lol

middleager

115 Posts

Esme12, I really do appreciate your honest and candid response. I think you hit the issue on the head "I am governed by hospital policy...." The fact that you recognize and more importantly are willing to disclose it says a great deal about the strength of your character. When issues such as this, particularly modesty come up they are often emotionally charged. I often feel it is the institution that puts the true providers, nurses, techs, etc in positions that create a divide between them and the patient. They establish protocol that providers do not agree with. When faced with following their heart and the patient desire vs following the instructions of the institution it is only normal they would follow protocol or they face backlash. That does not make them bad people at all but it may create turmoil for them in doing something they don't agree with. The fact that you will admit this is a huge step, often when we recognize things we cannot change are to some degree wrong we have no choice but to deny they exist even to ourselves. It is self protection. The vast majority of providers are providers because they are compassionate and want to help. Put them in a position that goes against that and it creates a no win. Just admitting it openly takes a certain degree of backbone. That should be appreciated not condemned

middleager

115 Posts

Oh and I could not agree more, I get so tired of the condemning all providers & officers for the actions of a very very few, it is ridiculous. On one hand some posters condemn for labeling all male suspects, then respond with examples like Dr. Sparks to judge all providers. I would think we could all agree there are good and bad patients, providers, officers. I don't see value in bringing up specific bad apples to apply to the profession as a whole. It just takes it to a level none of us want applied to us. I am a male, I despise domestic violence and would never ever consider threatening or laying a hand on my wife or daughters in anger or with malice, and I resent greatly any hint that I should be considered a potential abuser because of my gender. Same goes for judging providers, you lose credibility when you do this.

Karou

700 Posts

Specializes in Med-Surg.

Am I the only one who thinks at least two users on here are the same person, using multiple accounts? Maybe more?

1. There might be a "double standard" on modesty on occasion. I have never seen it happen. I wouldn't participate in it. But I am sure that on occasion, it happens. When possible, dignity should always be preserved. In my practice I make it a point to go to great lengths to preserve both my female and male patients dignity/modesty. I would condone any actions that unnecessarily violated a patients modesty/dignity. However, dignity does not trump safety. It is not priority over safety and will never be so in the medical world.

2. More than one user (possibly all the same person) on this thread seems to have an unhealthy obsession with this and similar topics. I urge you to seek professional help. Obviously you are coping with some self perceived trauma related to female nurses and sexuality. By the massive amount of time and research you have put into this, I imagine this obsession interferes with other aspects of your personal and work life. This is not healthy. Seek out a male counselor, PCP, or psychiatrist, please. I think you would be a happier person if this obsession wasn't consuming you.

I really feel like by posting anything more I would be indulging a troll or getting into a debate with a brick wall.

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