Male modesty double standard

SionainnRN · Sep 30, 2014

Not saying they all condone it, but there is no real outrage. And it is hard to ignore the gender of the perpetrator and the victim and see the outcome as anything but a double standard.
Do I personally think you all condone it, no, but I personally do think you feel it is no big deal and it undermines my faith in the medical profession. I will not go to the doctor until it is absolutely necessary and I certainly don't go for "routine exams" because I have a concern about my treatment and my perceived lack of concern for me as a male.
You can act offended all you want but at the end of the day, men avoid hospitals and doctors because we perceive that we are not respected and valued like they do their female patients. Ever seen a Men's Wing in a hospital?...

And for hundreds and hundreds of years women had to put up with only having make physicians. Did it suck, yes. Was it fair, no. Is anything in this world fair, no. So until real life turns into a perfect utopia we just have to drive to do our best. And honestly brining up the very rare outliers doesn't make your argument stronger, as every profession in the world, has examples of inappropriate, disgusting, unjustifiable behavior. It is not the norm, and will never be the norm.

banterings · Sep 30, 2014

whodaman, Thank you for eloquently stating what I have been trying to convey...

Not saying they all condone it, but there is no real outrage.

I have never accused anyone of not caring. I do question the lack of outrage and the caviler attitude.

macawake said:

However being exposed to a lot of human suffering on a regular basis, like you are in a high stress environment like an ER, can sometimes desensitize you. That’s a reaction, it’s not the same as not caring.

Caring is how one feels, intent. Again, I have never felt that anyone does not care. What I do question is actions. Everyone agrees that it happens. I am sure that whodaman received the best care from nurses who were genuinely concerned, but their actions fell short of their feelings. In the end is it not about the patient? Are we to say whodaman is incorrect about his perception of his care or how he views healthcare? Are we to accept that the nurses are desensitized as the reason for his treatment (but they still care makes everything fine)?

I am not accusing anyone here of committing actions either.

macawake also said:

I’m scientifically trained and my nature is analytical. I’m not prone to big, flashy and loud expressions of emotion.

Patients are not trained to suppress their emotions, quite the opposite they are very emotional being sick and vulnerable. Patients are not desensitized either.

I don’t believe that this is a problem of the magnitude that you seem to believe it is. I think that there are many reasons why men and women might hesitate to seek medical attention, I personally think modesty is pretty far down on that list. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

It is not. There was a study from the UK that found it to be #7. The real problem here in the US is that healthcare never asks this question because they do not want to know the answer. I can tell you, as a male, this is why I avoid healthcare. Please do not marginalize the experiences that whodaman and myself have had.

I am equally outraged about things such as physicians requiring pelvic exams for oral contraceptives when the packaging states pelvic exams NOT required. The only requirement is BP and (I believe) lipids for oral contraceptives.

The OC-OTC points to a recent survey conducted by researchers from the University of California, San Francisco, which found that about one-third of 1,200 doctors surveyed always required a pelvic exam before writing a prescription for birth control pills, and 44% “regularly” required the exam. (Source: Time Magazine)

I think in reality the number requiring the pelvic exam is more like 70% (only 44% admit it).

You do not need to answer this, but ponder it to yourself?

Is there outrage about this or do we just accept that as being part of the procedure to get birth control because that is the way it has always been done?

Of the women here, how many of you choose the gender of your gynecologists? How many go regularly?

psu_213, I do not find "The member Palace" offensive, it is quite funny.

But I ask you, what if they referred to obstetrics department by a woman's genitals?

This is benign and not (IMHO) offensive. But the question is why the double standard and why do we accept it?

Let me give everyone some perspective from a man's point of view and part of the reason for the double standard:

I always stand up when a woman comes to the table or into a room. I will always hold the door for a woman. Once, I had a woman (presumedly a feminist) tell me that she was perfectly capable of opening her own door. I told her, this is what my mother taught me. My mother was the first woman I ever held the door for.

When I see a woman, I see my mother there. To do anything less would be disrespectful to my mother. I afford all women (by the nature of them being women) a respect and regard because of my mother. (She let me hold the door for her.) When we meet our wives, we look for those qualities that remind us of our mothers; loving caring, etc. Our wives only reenforce that respect that we have for women.

Part of the double standard is societal. As men, we do not tolerate any disrespect for women. Say what you like about me, don't dare say it about my wife, mother, etc. That is how we are. We evolved fighting bears so that our wives (and children) could escape the caves ancient man lived in. We go to war to protect the women back home and gladly give our lives.

That is not to say women are not capable, they have proven their abilities. That is just the high regard that men have for all women.

Men are fine with a double standard in society for women such as not having to register for selective service, "ladies' tees" in the PGA, women never had to take swimming class naked like boys did (up to the 1970's), serve in combat. It was women who demanded these rights and most men stood behind their right to do so. That is evident today by the number of women physicians, CEOs, etc., women in combat, and so on.

I am sure that you have heard the expression "if men had to have children, humans would be extinct. Men don't deal well with healthcare. Did you ever see the Monty Python skit, "It's just a flesh wound?" That is how men feel.

The tradition al nurse's uniform (with a cap) is an evolution of Catholic nuns' habbit. They were one of the first organizations that cared for the sick. When I think of female nurses, I think of the ones portray in the 1940's movies, how they cared for patients. Honestly, men would prefer female caregivers. They see the 1940's nurse who reminds them of how their mothers and wives took care of them when they were sick.

Nursing changed with all of healthcare. The change in the traditional uniform to scrubs is usually attributed to infection control. It was more due to the "sexuality" assigned to it (how male dominated physicians treated and sexualized nurses) and more men entering the nursing profession. Again, it brought more respect to women.

As healthcare became more assembly line, having a patient naked improved efficiency. The one of problems that men have with female providers is the lack of emotion that these "scientifically trained" people do not have. Anthropologically, we expect that emotional caring from women, but when it lacks, there is a feeling of "something wrong" that makes men extremely uncomfortable and unacceptable. Yes, our mothers would do anything to save our lives, but they acknowledge our feelings, they earn and keep our trust.

Couple that with a man's view "his home is his castle," men see healthcare providers' entitlement to our own bodies as the ultimate invasion of our castles and ourselves. This is the paternalistic version of healthcare that the patient centered movement seeks to abolish.

With changes in society and the economy, it takes two people to support a household today. Most men hat the fact that their wives have to work. Chivalry is not dead, just a little harder to see.

Again, this has nothing to do with women's abilities, aptitude, intelligence, etc. Many times women are better equipped to handle things than men; war (historically being caused by men) comes to mind. Whether you realize it or not (most) men (yes there are outliers here too), hold women in a higher regard because of how our mothers raised us. The fact that you can open your own door (yes we know that), but we go out of our way to do it should be the way that we you see us.

Halfpt · Sep 30, 2014

If it's a trauma pt and the cops are with them why would they leave the room, regardless of gender? Either they are a suspect and in custody, or their a witness/victim and the cops may need info and/or evidence. And if someone's life is on the line, then gender doesn't matter. Or are you okay telling someones family they died because there was a cop of the opposite gender in the room? Or explain to a nurses family that they were assaulted because you wanted the cop out of the room? You seem to have no idea how things actually work in an ER/Trauma room.

So it's okay for police to be present for a trauma patient, simply involved in a MVA, not a suspect, and what about HIPAA? And if the cops need evidence, don't they need a warrant? I'm sure witness/victims really appreciate the entourage. My apologies for the snide comment but you being okay with it clearly illustrates the problem. If this the standard of care we can expect, unless unconscious, I'm not going to the ER.

caregiver111 · Sep 30, 2014

Quote by ESME12

I am curious...where are you in obtaining your paramedic certification?

I did received my paramedic license and I'm considering more advanced training in the medical field.

Quote by macawake

Why was the man who'd fallen down the basement steps just lying naked on the bed, it sounds highly unusual. Normally patients are covered, modesty is just part of the reason, maintaining body temperature is even more important. When I work I uncover the parts I need to see and examine at the time, otherwise the patient is covered.

They had just finished catheterizing him when the police came in and they did cover him up within a few minutes.

Quote by SionainnRN

Umm you know the towel has to be removed from the females genitalia to cath her too, right? I've never seen a pt cathed with curtains open, EVER. So acting like it happens every shift every day is ridiculous

Maybe where you and the other nurses worked male patients being exposed unnecessarily was not a common occurrence but where I worked it was standard practice. Only once did I see a nurse close the curtains for a male patient when police were present. It was easier for the staff to work with the curtains open so they didn't bother to shut them for male pts. Even with female pts the curtains were left open as long as there were no police present. I never saw a police officer knock on the door before he entered the room. I never saw anyone including male or female doctors place a towel on a male pt's privates or show any concern for a male pt's dignity when non-medical people were present. That was the accepted norm where I worked. I worked at this hospital for 9 months and saw dozens of trauma cases involving the police and I never once saw a police officer wait outside in the hallway. I know other medical personnel who work in different trauma rooms and they said that their situation was pretty much the same. To all of you nurses who have stated here that you do everything you can to ensure the modesty of all pts I applaud you. I personally have always been treated with great respect by female nurses and doctors. But to say that all nurses or medical personnel are professional and show the same concern for pts as you do is generalizing. There are many websites dedicated to medical modesty issues that feature male and female patient accounts of being treated wrongly by male and female medical personnel.

Halfpt · Sep 30, 2014

Well, it is technically not a "wing", and, true, it is technically not all male patients, but my hospital does have a dedicated urology unit. It happens to be one of the nicest in the hospital--all private rooms, mini-fridges in the rooms, HD TVs in every room. This certainly does not prove that there are not a few nurses out there who don't care about patients privacy, but predominately male units do exist.
One of our (male) nurses calls it "The member Palace"....uh oh, did I just insult the dignity of the male patients on the unit.

And if it's anything like the nationally respected institution where I live, not a single ancillary staff member (who actually provides patient care) is male.

psu_213, BSN, RN · Sep 30, 2014

It is not. There was a study from the UK that found it to be #7. The real problem here in the US is that healthcare never asks this question because they do not want to know the answer.

Actually, on every Press Gainey survey received by patients in the US, there is a section where pts. can rate "the nurses cared for my dignity" (I forget exactly how is is phrased) and then there is a section for free text comments by the pt.

SionainnRN · Sep 30, 2014

So it's okay for police to be present for a trauma patient, simply involved in a MVA, not a suspect, and what about HIPAA? And if the cops need evidence, don't they need a warrant? I'm sure witness/victims really appreciate the entourage. My apologies for the snide comment but you being okay with it clearly illustrates the problem. If this the standard of care we can expect, unless unconscious, I'm not going to the ER.

Your ignorance is astounding, I really don't know where to begin. Do you think the cops are just hanging out in the trauma room for fun? To get their jollies? If the pt is in custody, the cops stay by their side no matter what. Including invasive procedures, radiology screens, OR, etc. The rest of the time if the pt is alert and the medical teams needs to disrobe the pt or do invasive procedures the cop will step out or turn around till the pt is draped, if they aren't in custody. If the pt isn't conscious, well we've got more life saving things to worry about than if a sheet isn't draped right. In my book life trumps modesty every single time.

So what unit in the hospital do you work where you see cops gawking at pts every day? Because making up crap like you're doing is the problem. Not the rest of us working hard every day to see our pts get the very best care they can.

SionainnRN · Sep 30, 2014

Maybe where you and the other nurses worked male patients being exposed unnecessarily was not a common occurrence but where I worked it was standard practice. Only once did I see a nurse close the curtains for a male patient when police were present. It was easier for the staff to work with the curtains open so they didn't bother to shut them for male pts. Even with female pts the curtains were left open as long as there were no police present.

Are you seriuosly trying to say that if no cops were present pts were left in rooms with curtains open and stark naked? Cause I'm calling bull. There is no way that happened. And honestly the way you talk, how you give examples, makes no sense. So did the nurse close the curtain when she was out of the room and the cops were in? Was it easier for the nurses to work outside the room with the curtains in the room open? You really need to work on giving clearer examples, because what you are saying makes zero sense.

The only time I have ever seen a pt completely naked with no attempts to cover them was when they were brought into the trauma bay, clothes were cut off and everyone was attempting to figure out the extent of their injuries and/or resuscitating them. The fact that you are convinced that every hospital has nurses stripping pts for the pleasure of the cops, makes me wonder about your mental state....

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 30, 2014

Quote by ESME12
I am curious...where are you in obtaining your paramedic certification?
I did received my paramedic license and I'm considering more advanced training in the medical field.
Quote by macawake
Why was the man who’d fallen down the basement steps just lying naked on the bed, it sounds highly unusual. Normally patients are covered, modesty is just part of the reason, maintaining body temperature is even more important. When I work I uncover the parts I need to see and examine at the time, otherwise the patient is covered.
They had just finished catheterizing him when the police came in and they did cover him up within a few minutes.
Quote by SionainnRN
Umm you know the towel has to be removed from the females genitalia to cath her too, right? I've never seen a pt cathed with curtains open, EVER. So acting like it happens every shift every day is ridiculous
Maybe where you and the other nurses worked male patients being exposed unnecessarily was not a common occurrence but where I worked it was standard practice. Only once did I see a nurse close the curtains for a male patient when police were present. It was easier for the staff to work with the curtains open so they didn't bother to shut them for male pts. Even with female pts the curtains were left open as long as there were no police present. I never saw a police officer knock on the door before he entered the room. I never saw anyone including male or female doctors place a towel on a male pt's privates or show any concern for a male pt's dignity when non-medical people were present. That was the accepted norm where I worked. I worked at this hospital for 9 months and saw dozens of trauma cases involving the police and I never once saw a police officer wait outside in the hallway. I know other medical personnel who work in different trauma rooms and they said that their situation was pretty much the same. To all of you nurses who have stated here that you do everything you can to ensure the modesty of all pts I applaud you. I personally have always been treated with great respect by female nurses and doctors. But to say that all nurses or medical personnel are professional and show the same concern for pts as you do is generalizing. There are many websites dedicated to medical modesty issues that feature male and female patient accounts of being treated wrongly by male and female medical personnel.

If you use the '' feature at the bottom right hand corner of every post...it is a multiquote ability to help clarify your posts.

caregiver111 I was a paramedic student doing my clinicals at that hospital

Congratulations! Then how long ago did this happen? You were a student at the time.

You also contradict yourself...

caregiver111 Even with female pts the curtains were left open

For in your first few posts you stated that the curtains were always closed on females.

caregiver111 If the patient was a female the curtains would be immediately closed and kept closed until the entire trauma procedure was complete.

caregiver111 When I say watch this procedure I am referring to male patients since they always close the curtains for female patients and always leave them n for a male patients.

With the inconsistencies that are present.... I am not not sure about the validity of this thread.

I am sorry you experienced such unprofessional behavior. I have worked trauma in 5 states and a multitude of facilities in Trauma flight. I have never witnessed this behavior.

All the best on your future endeavors.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 30, 2014

So it's okay for police to be present for a trauma patient, simply involved in a MVA, not a suspect, and what about HIPAA? And if the cops need evidence, don't they need a warrant? I'm sure witness/victims really appreciate the entourage. My apologies for the snide comment but you being okay with it clearly illustrates the problem. If this the standard of care we can expect, unless unconscious, I'm not going to the ER.

HIPAA applies of course...except in the presence of the law and investigative procedure. No...they don't need a warrant in all/most instances.

Emergency medicine is a specialty all unto itself. Standard of treatment and procedure are followed to the letter of the law...and NO the police don't enter rooms for kicks.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 30, 2014

. Ever seen a Men's Wing in a hospital?...

Actually years ago...yes I have.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 30, 2014

And if it's anything like the nationally respected institution where I live, not a single ancillary staff member (who actually provides patient care) is male.

I find that EXTREMELY difficult to believe unless you are at an all woman clinic....and even then there is still a majority of male OB/GYNS.