Male modesty double standard

TheCommuter, BSN, RN · Sep 11, 2014

I think people should consider suing the hospitals as this double standard of modesty for male patients is an extreme violation of medical ethics and standards of decency that are supposed to apply to all patients.

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Per our terms of service, members are to refrain from exchanging legal advice because it is out of the scope of this website. You are mentioning that people should consider suing for occurrences you've perceived as wrongdoings, and therefore, this constitutes indirect legal advice.

Nola009 · Sep 11, 2014

Wow, that does seem wrong

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Karou · Sep 11, 2014

I am not fully understanding...

"Trauma room" in the ED? "Resuscitation"? As in, live saving measures/coding?

Are these suspected criminals? Violent? Victims of trauma? I would expect police officers to be present and very watchful if these are suspected criminals that health care providers are performing life saving care on.

I don't understand your point very much. What was your role in this? Health care provider? Unless you were in the room as part of that healthcare team I don't think you are aware of the policies and procedures that dictate those circumstances.

Weird post, in my opinion.

Edited to add..

Although I do not work in the emergency department, I imagine that with trauma situations police officers could be necessary to be present due to the legal processes involved, for a police report. Especially if the patient is a suspect.

Does anyone else know more about this? I'm genuinely curious.

FutureRN101 · Sep 11, 2014

Although I do not work in the emergency department, I imagine that with trauma situations police officers could be necessary to be present due to the legal processes involved, for a police report. Especially if the patient is a suspect.
Does anyone else know more about this? I'm genuinely curious.

This would be exactly right. I'm assuming the police are there because it is a suspect that was arrested and then needed medical treatment. Once someone has been arrested, an officer must be with them at ALL times until they are brought in for booking. What if this suspect ended up assaulting a nurse, dr, or another patient? When under arrest, the police officer is responsible for that person and making sure as best they can that nothing happens to that suspect or by that suspect to another.

I really don't understand the complaint by the OP assuming they are talking about officers observing people they have arrested and had to bring in for treatment.

elkpark · Sep 11, 2014

I work in psychiatric consultation & liaison in a large teaching hospital, and have often been consulted on individuals who are in police or corrections custody. Although no disrobing is involved, we typically speak to people privately for psychiatric evaluations because of confidentiality concerns, and I have asked police officers to leave the room (they can remain immediately outside the door, and there is literally no other way for the person in custody to exit the room because we are on an upper floor of the hospital) but have been told that the rules and regulations under which they operate require that they not let the person out of their immediate sight/vicinity for any reason. I have had correctons officers insist that, even though the person is shackled to the bed, they are required to remain in the room with the individual. The OP's scenario is probably a similar situation, and the issue is not "male vs. female" but "in custody vs. not in custody."

Individuals who experience this and feel that their privacy and rights have been violated are welcome to (try to) sue the hospital. However, the OP has no standing to sue on anyone else's behalf.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 11, 2014

I am curious as to your position in the emergency room/trauma center

in a large US city

Do you have personal knowledge of what the patient was brought in for? Were they a part of violent crime? Was the rectal exam looking for stashed drugs? Were you apart of the patients care?

Unless you are directly involved in the care of the patient with intimate knowledge of what is going on....it is impossible to judge the how's and why's of what is going on in that trauma room. If you do not have responsibility for the care of the patient it is a HIPAA (privacy) violation for you to be even standing around observing.

I am curious what has prompted you to post this today? Nurses try to preserve the privacy of EVERY PATIENT regardless of their legal status or gender. We protect the female as much as the male. If the police presence is necessary they are allowed in the rooms during exams and procedures to protect chain of evidence including the removal of bullets and drug in body offices. IN these cases the legal takes precedence over the medical privacy

caregiver111 · Sep 11, 2014

In answer to some of the above questions. For example if you were in a care accident or were the victim of a crime and you were taken to the trauma room for medical treatment the police would need to talk to you about the incident. Only a small percentage of the patients in the trauma room were criminals or under arrest. The first thing the medical staff would do is cut all your clothes off to examine your entire body. The rectal exam is necessary to see if there is blood in your rectum. They would need to catheterize you to obtain a sample of your urine to analyse and detect the presence of blood. This is known as trauma resuscitation and is done to all patients. The police should not be allowed to just barge back into the trauma room and stand around and watch this necessary but humiliating procedure. If they need to talk to a patient or collect evidence they should knock on the trauma room door and ask if it's ok to come back. When I say watch this procedure I am referring to male patients since they always close the curtains for female patients and always leave them n for a male patients.

imintrouble, BSN, RN · Sep 11, 2014

In answer to some of the above questions. For example if you were in a care accident or were the victim of a crime and you were taken to the trauma room for medical treatment the police would need to talk to you about the incident. Only a small percentage of the patients in the trauma room were criminals or under arrest. The first thing the medical staff would do is cut all your clothes off to examine your entire body. The rectal exam is necessary to see if there is blood in your rectum. They would need to catheterize you to obtain a sample of your urine to analyse and detect the presence of blood. This is known as trauma resuscitation and is done to all patients. The police should not be allowed to just barge back into the trauma room and stand around and watch this necessary but humiliating procedure. If they need to talk to a patient or collect evidence they should knock on the trauma room door and ask if it's ok to come back.
When I say watch this procedure I am referring to male patients since they always close the curtains for female patients and always leave them n for a male patients.

You're angry about something. I suspect it's something to do with yourself, a friend, or a family member.

I'm sorry you witnessed something, or experienced something in the ED, that you perceive as discrimination.

I don't work ED, but I provide the same amount of privacy for all my patients regardless of their gender. I don't know a single nurse who doesn't.

The only thing that might change the equation is safety.

ICURN3020 · Sep 11, 2014

If the police presence is necessary they are allowed in the rooms during exams and procedures to protect chain of evidence including the removal of bullets and drug in body offices. IN these cases the legal takes precedence over the medical privacy

This is my understanding as well. Once legal issues arise, the police become involved and will be present if the patient is a suspect or victim of crime. They can obtain necessary information from medical staff relavent to the case. My understanding of chain-of-evidence is that only authorized individuals may verify the validity of the evidence. So if the police are not present to protect the proper handling of the evidence, that could cause major problems during trial as the evidence may be thrown out. I honestly don't know if medical staff are ever authorized to handle evidence, although I would think forensic/rape nurses might be.

As far as protecting patient privacy, I haven't seen a difference in male/female.....we protect all patient's privacy the best we can.

caregiver111 · Sep 11, 2014

In my last post I made a mistake in the last sentence, should have been "the curtains were always left open when it was male patient". I was a paramedic student doing my clinicals at that hospital and was required to assist in the trauma room as part of my training. I'd be more than happy to name the hospital and city the but don't know if I'm allowed to. I agree all patients should be treated with dignity but that's not what I saw at this hospital. I talked to the medical staff and they didn't like the police coming back and standing around but were reluctant to tell them to wait outside. Only once did I see a nurse try to protect the modesty of a male patient. A prisoner was brought in handcuffed and placed on the trauma table accompanied by four male policemen and one female police officer. The nurse in charge said " lets do this right" and she closed the curtains all the way while they did the trauma exam. If the police absolutely had to be present when a trauma patient was being treated it should be the same gender as the patient. Female police officers are not the same gender as a male patient.

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 12, 2014

In my last post I made a mistake in the last sentence, should have been "the curtains were always left open when it was male patient". I was a paramedic student doing my clinicals at that hospital and was required to assist in the trauma room as part of my training. I'd be more than happy to name the hospital and city the but don't know if I'm allowed to. I agree all patients should be treated with dignity but that's not what I saw at this hospital. I talked to the medical staff and they didn't like the police coming back and standing around but were reluctant to tell them to wait outside. Only once did I see a nurse try to protect the modesty of a male patient. A prisoner was brought in handcuffed and placed on the trauma table accompanied by four male policemen and one female police officer. The nurse in charge said " lets do this right" and she closed the curtains all the way while they did the trauma exam. If the police absolutely had to be present when a trauma patient was being treated it should be the same gender as the patient. Female police officers are not the same gender as a male patient.

I worked at a very large very busy county hospital Level I trauma. We always covered the privates of male patients and closed the curtain whenever possible. Unfortunately, many times the police presence is required and the prisoners need to be physically seen by the officers at all times...including female officers for male patients. Yes there is a double standard for female patients will get a female officer called for that officer to be with the female...males get whomever...it is what it is.

Male patients that are involved in trauma tend to have a higher incidence of violence against the staff AND a danger that whatever caused the conflict that the person who shot them comes to finish it off in the ED. Curtains are left open most of the time to ensure the patients and staff safety. The officers cannot be at the bedside as there is NO ROOM hence the curtains are open.

In MOST cases there is a very good reason for things even when no one explains what that is to the student.