In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.
1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.
2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.
4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.
5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.
6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
I am with you Deb. I think my BSN program required we take 3 electives in the whole program (and the tuition was the same as all the nursing classes).
As far as LPNs, I guess I have always considered them as being their own separate profession. Their educational standards and registration is really their choice, not mine. I don't see their role necessarily changing if RN education does.
YOU have anger issues too, from what I see. Just about other things. but from what I gather, you have been abused and disrespected. so you should SEE VERY EASILY where some of are coming from......I dont' need a PhD to understand a basic tenet:
respect is important people!!!
Sadly, there is a lot of disrespect in this and other threads on all sides.
Yes I do have issues that are very well documented on this BB secondary to issues of sexual harassment, hostile work environment, gender discrimination, and irresponsible nursing management (mostly female) that ignored those problems.
I asked the question to solicit a response that I had hoped would have allowed us all to take a deep breath and think a bit about the issues that were raised on this thread.
It sounds like you are angry about being disrespected as an ADN-RN. Okay, I understand that. But what I don't understand are individuals who disrespect the value of higher education.
It sounds like you are angry about certain individuals (as you stated) "Lording" thier credentials over you and others. This disrespect obviously is painful and inappropriate. As a stated before a "highly educated narcissistic psychopath" is still a narcissistic psychopath in spite of the education.
It is wrong to disrespect others but at the same time important issues remain that should be addressed if nursing is going to thrive in the new millennium.
How best to continue this dialogue in a constructive manner?
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by hbscott
Yes I do have issues that are very well documented on this BB secondary to issues of sexual harassment, hostile work environment, gender discrimination, and irresponsible nursing management (mostly female) that ignored those problems.
I asked the question to solicit a response that I had hoped would have allowed us all to take a deep breath and think a bit about the issues that were raised on this thread.
My reply:
****OK all I ask is the same consideration from people like YOU. To just throw up your hands and exclaim :
"so much anger" tells me somehow it's unjustified. People want validation. You do, so do I.*****************
It sounds like you are angry about being disrespected as an ADN-RN. Okay, I understand that. But what I don't understand are individuals who disrespect the value of higher education.
My reply:
****You don't see that from ME. (disrespect for educated people by virtue of their education). I cannot speak for others. what I don't get is why anyone tolerates or perpetrates disrespect period. The people targeted *usually* are the Less-educated, at least, historically on these boards. I can only address from MY end what I see and the heartburn I have with it. I say again: I respect all forms of education, in the classroom and out....and those who seek to improve themselves are worthy of my highest regard! Never have you heard ME disrespect educated people for being educated in and of itself, just how some of them act toward others. Truly classy, educated people NEVER have to "show off" to others, we know who are they by their very behaviors and capabilities!********
It sounds like you are angry about certain individuals (as you stated) "Lording" thier credentials over you and others. This disrespect obviously is painful and inappropriate. As a stated before a "highly educated narcissistic psychopath" is still a narcissistic psychopath in spite of the education.
MY reply:
*******thank you. *That* is validation I was looking for! We all need it!******************
It is wrong to disrespect others but at the same time important issues remain that should be addressed if nursing is going to thrive in the new millennium.
My reply:
*****agreed. I think we DO need one point of entry, and BSN is logical. But we need to handle it carefully and thoughtfully. Access and affordability are IMPORTANT ISSUES we cannot afford to ignore, especially with the deepening shortage. We must address these IF this will ever come to pass!*****
How best to continue this dialogue in a constructive manner?
My reply:
*****I think you and I are doing fine here. It's a beginning at least. The way NOT to do it, is to disrespect others or act boastful on either end. Also, propogating (for sheer self-interest), inflammmatory and grossly inaccurate studies, surely is not helpful. That is how I see it, anyhow. ******
This issue is always so volitile. (hope I spelled that right). I have worked in so many different areas of nursing in over 20+years. I have worked with excellent LPN's, RN's of all levels, and MD's. I have worked with everything else inbetween. I think that our attitudes about education vary as widely as our levels. This is what makes nursing such an exciting area. If you do not like what you are doing somewhere--you can move on. (either by going back to formal education system--or 'on job training'. )
Being a professional means growing and learning in whatever capacity that fits your field of practice. If I hadn't changed my knowledge base over the years, I'd still be doing venipucture without gloves. Education is what you make of it. It is part of who and what we are as nurses and it never ends. JMHO:zzzzz :zzzzz
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Anyone care to tackle my question:
If BSN-entry is THE way to streamline nursing entry and to gain us respect as professionals among Other "professionals" such as doctors, pharmicists, and therapists......
What then becomes of LPN/LVN's? Realizing a large segment of the general population fails to recognize the difference between LPN's and RN's and their roles, what, then, do we do IF all BSN-entry comes to pass?
What future does that spell for the LPN/LVN role in nursing? anyone?
Hang in there Deb. Many, many people are very sympathetic to the issues you raise. What worked for me when I was in your shoes was to value those friends who encouraged me and at the same time start setting obtainable and realistic goals that improved my situation over time.
I certainly lost my cool and composure from time to time along the way but the important thing is to keep our perspective. When all is said and done I think we will find that the things we did in the spirit of love will be remembered as our best achievment and experience.
If BSN-entry is THE way to streamline nursing entry and to gain us respect as professionals among Other "professionals" such as doctors, pharmicists, and therapists......
What then becomes of LPN/LVN's? Realizing a large segment of the general population fails to recognize the difference between LPN's and RN' and their roles, what then do we do IF all BSN-entry comes to pass? What future does that spell for the LPN/LVN role in nursing? anyone?
We have tried to resolve this issue in the past through more specific titles such as "nurse manager", "clinical nurse specialist", "advance practice nurse", but as noted in an earlier post this seems to have added to the confusion.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by hbscott
We have tried to resolve this issue in the past through more specific titles such as "nurse manager", "clinical nurse specialist", "advance practice nurse", but as noted in an earlier post this seems to have added to the confusion.
-HBS
NONE of these roles has a thing to do with LPN/LVN roles. These nurses do NOT fill such positions. Only RN's do, except in a few LTC situations. So this leaves my question basically unanswered in my mind. I just want to know what All-BSN proponents think here. Are you an All-BSN proponent, hbscott? I forget, sorry.
NONE of these roles has a thing to do with LPN/LVN roles. These nurses do NOT fill such positions. Only RN's do, except in a few LTC situations.
No, but in the public's mind (generally speaking) a nurse, is a nurse, is a nurse. This includes LPN's and LVN's. It has been my experience that the public at large has much confusion about what exactly a nurse is since the nurse title is so loosely applied to so many occupations.
Imagine if you well the following titles, LPP (Licensed Practical Physician), LVP (Licensed Vocational Physician), ADP (Associate Degree Physician), BSP (Bachelor's of Science - Physician), etc.
That was the point I was trying to make. If I was to answer your question directly then I would have to say the first step is to redefine in legal language certain nursing roles and responsibilities that don't confuse the public (and some nurses) so much. Then the next step would be to consistently apply that language to state practice acts across the country.
That though, would be very controversial to say the least. And would it be effective? At best we can only speculate but the opinion on that matter would also be divisive.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by hbscott
No, but in the public's mind (generally speaking) a nurse, is a nurse, is a nurse. This includes LPN's and LVN's. It has been my experience that the public at large has much confusion about what exactly a nurse is since the nurse title is so loosely applied to so many occupations.
.
-HBS
Yes you bring up an EXCELLENT point...the belief that "a nurse is a nurse" Ah but this belief is not only held in the public mind. After all hospitals say this too. By floating us to units that are totally foreign to us and expecting us to function safely.---these very words are uttered by administrators and nursing supervisors ALL THE TIME! We are a cheap commodity at best in their eyes and the less spend on us, the better.
I just wonder the role of the LPN/LVN IF we did go all-bsn. And would being all BSN really solve all our problems and gain us the much -desired respect from doctors (ha) and administrators and the public, who abuse us the most?
I just wonder the role of the LPN/LVN IF we did go all-bsn. And would being all BSN really solve all our problems and gain us the much -desired respect from doctors (ha) and administrators and the public, who abuse us the most?
You really have to go "metaphysical" on this one and ask the question:
"How does one obtain power and respect in our lives and professions?"
Once the answer to that question is revealed then move forward on that knowledge and see where it takes you.
I have to say it, (not that I like doing so) that when I learned the answer to the question above my journey took me out of nursing.
If the OPs point is that higher education in nursing shouldn't automatically give you a certain position, then I agree.
I am an LPN at a facility that has only RN charge nurses. Yet, when I started on my unit, we were three LPNs, the one who was there longest was 'charge'. She got the charge responsibility, she got the charge duties and she got the charge bull****, but alas, no charge pay as she was 'only' and LPN. When she became burnt to a crisp and left her job due to the above, I was lucky enough to be viewed as charge because the other nurse who I worked with wasn't organized. We did the best we could, but with short staffing some things weren't done exactly as needed. They gave us a charge nurse who was an RN, she couldn't handle it, so she went to another department. Once again, I was charge for a few months and was getting better at it. They gave us another RN, she had been employed at my facility and quit once before, she couldn't handle it, she quit again. You guessed it! Once again, I was charge for a few months, doing fine until they gave us another RN who was the biggest idiot on earth...no exaggeration. She was with us for a month and wrecked the whole system I had going. I was doing her job, and my job and trying to clean up her messes. This woman attempted to take a rectal temp and when it wouldn't register, I told her she had to eject the probe cover, put a new one on, and start over. She ejected the probe cover into the pts. rectum! Another time she had to start an IV for a pt. with REALLY low blood sugar. She had everything ready and right when she was about to insert the needle, she screamed 'I cant! I'm too nervous!!' ran down the hall to the desk and then fainted. That was her last day After her we got another RN who actually stayed for 8 months, but she made a huge mess of everything. When it was found out that she was asking for overtime to complete duties that she wasn't completing, she was put in another department...MDS. 7-3 M-F with weekends and holidays off. I would have LOVED that job! But I'm 'only' an LPN and we're not allowed to do those...oh, ok so only the screw up RNs can have that job then? Because the facility doesn't want to lose an RN even if she's a terrible nurse? We now have a new charge RN. She comes in late every day at 9am because she is going for in-vitro. She also calls in a lot and NEVER comes in when we have a snowstorm. So, once again, I am doing most of her duties most of the time. People should get positions and pay because they can do the job and because they merit a reward...not because of the education they have.
Please don't take what I said above as a knock against RNs. I do not mean the above that way at ALL and don't want to start and RN vs. LPN war. I work with a lot of RNs who are excellent people as well as nurses. I just don't think nurses deserve respect and/or certain jobs because of their education. We have an Administrator of Clinical Services who is a complete IDIOT and she has degrees up the wazoo...too bad they don't teach common sense and tact in Masters classes!
After her we got another RN who actually stayed for 8 months, but she made a huge mess of everything. When it was found out that she was asking for overtime to complete duties that she wasn't completing, she was put in another department...MDS. 7-3 M-F with weekends and holidays off. I would have LOVED that job! But I'm 'only' an LPN and we're not allowed to do those...oh, ok so only the screw up RNs can have that job then? Because the facility doesn't want to lose an RN even if she's a terrible nurse? We now have a new charge RN. She comes in late every day at 9am because she is going for in-vitro. She also calls in a lot and NEVER comes in when we have a snowstorm. So, once again, I am doing most of her duties most of the time. People should get positions and pay because they can do the job and because they merit a reward...not because of the education they have.
fergus51
6,620 Posts
I am with you Deb. I think my BSN program required we take 3 electives in the whole program (and the tuition was the same as all the nursing classes).
As far as LPNs, I guess I have always considered them as being their own separate profession. Their educational standards and registration is really their choice, not mine. I don't see their role necessarily changing if RN education does.