In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.
1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.
2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.
4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.
5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.
6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
when reading the posts of the OP - my interpretation is of someone who actually does feel inadequate about the degree they are obtaining and is trying to belittle others to feel better...just my 2 cents...
however....more education doesn't make a good nurse...you have to have it to begin with that special something...but when you take 2 good nurses and one goes further w/ their education - they are only bound to be better! If you think that a BSN doesn't give you more education, more critical thinking skills, more understaning of physiology and pathophysiology and pharmocology then you just plain haven't done your research. Many hospitals in my area (HOPKINS included are phasing out anyone w/o a bsn - those that don't have one can obtain one free through the school by virtue of being an employee) and the last hospital i worked in used lpn's on the floors and although they were apparently good nurses - they couldn't do 1/2 their job (assessments and iv pushes) which made it a huge burden on those w/ a degree of some sort.
you stated that you learn everything you need to know in school - if you feel this way you should stop now...because you LEARN NOTHING IN SCHOOL as far as what the real world of nursing is about...
and as for BSN's being safer etc....my program required me to read ekgs, know acls etc prior to me graduating...so i believe that i had a huge headstart out of the gate - i was leaps and bounds above others who took at least 1-2 years to be as efficient at those things...but that is just another benefit of BSN - a longer stretch of time to teach you .....
I feel sorry for you because if you go into the nursing feild with this attitude you will surely be eaten alive.
Thanks, Randy- Just so ya know, I'm an "old" diploma RN, then BSN, and soon-to-be MSN. None of that made me a better person, but I do think it has enhanced my thinking, communication, and leadership skills. Just my opinion.
I already conceded that a BS is a good education level to have for a nurse; just look back a little through the replies. I just don't think a BSN is the degree to have, even though that's what the nursing community wants. I think a BS in some other field may be the best thing to have. It would make a more well-rounded nurse.
I'll go even further--I think, now, that a person should have a BS or BA with AP 1,2, and microbiology, psych, soc, human growth and development as prerequisits before they can even enter a nursing program, which would be two years.
They would then graduate with something like a Masters degree in applied science in Nursing as a result.
I finished a BSc in Liberal Arts. The ADN I'm almost done with has been far tougher than anything I ever did, even as a junior and senior. Why not just do it that way?
Make nursing school a masters level program, because it certainly isn't anything like an associates degree program. I slept through my first two years in college and still got a B. Nursing school is a different animal altogether.
I say BS or BA and then nursing school as the entry level requirement.
My mother was "poor farm girl" who attended a 3 year hospital-based Diploma Nursing School. In her Diploma RN program she had to live in a dormitory on the hospital campus and work nights and weekends when she had duty. This was considered part of the educational experience. When you were allowed to enjoy some free time off the hospital campus you had to check out with a duty nursing student at the dormitory and check back in when you returned. With this kind of intensive, saturation on-the-job training you can imagine the nursing skills you left with if you survived the program.
In her 40's my mother returned to school and completed her BSN and then later completed her FNP. You can imagine her pride. But at the same time she also felt "attacked" at times by nurses who elected not to continue their formal educations. That truly broke her heart. It broke my heart to see my mother work so hard to achieve something that was not respected by SOME of her peers.
The moral of the story is a simple one. Go on and be the best you can be. In the long run it is worth it. But don't expect EVERYONE to be supportive. Those who are supportive should be valued as friends and respected accordingly. Those who are adversarial are so for many different reasons. If you can make peace with them that is a wonderful thing, if you can not then move on as best you can.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by barb4575
DIPLOMA and BSN programs is my vote....nursemaa, I pm'd you and did not intend for you to feel that I was referring to your post.
Barbara
soooo Barb, BSN instructor, I have noted. WHERE DOES THAT LEAVE 60% of us who are RN's?
Do you not see how this MAYBE MIGHT UPSET SOME OF US????
WHY diploma and NOT ADN?
Does anyone get that ADN's have to do the SAME pre-req course work that BSN do? You all go on about how BSN get all this "extra course work"....wow
Depends on the ADN program I guess. I don't lack a BSN by much. it's sure frustrating to hear our level of education downed this way by BSN-proponents like this. Yes, I lacked exactly this:
stats, Community health nursing ( A BIGGIE IN MY BOOK), and management course work, senior seminar. WOW am I inadequate or what????? Puhleeze.
But please let's don't get into how "unique" and MUCH better BSN education IS....(as so many keep saying at these boards)......I met ALL BSN requirements with my pre-nursing course work...OH YEP YEP that means ALL THE SAME courses those first two years that make BSN's "so much more well-rounded" I GOT!!!! HOW BOUT THAT???? I am well-rounded as any BSN is......I need my senior coursework. I realize that is lacking, but I am so sick of hearing the superiority of BSN educations touted....esp when people try and tell me they are more well-rounded with their liberal arts and sciences backgrounds. I would challenge that one with my transcripts from college, myself!
I am weary of hearing how BSN-prepared nurses have critical-thinking skills ADN's lack. That is a lie. It was drummed into our heads from the very first day of NURSING FUNDAMENTALS classwork and until the very day of pinning. It's the buzzword of the millienium...one that I am sick of hearing. ALLNURSES MUST HAVE CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS TO SURVIVE and we are ALL TOLD THIS, trust me, not just BSN students!
So quit touting the superiority of BSN's, quit being divisive and look for REAL ways to unite us to become stronger already!!! QUIT THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE that is running so strongly in such obvious self-interest to BSN/ 4-year university business. SOME OF US SEE thru it!
Let me clarify: I respect education.....both formal and in life......I respect those who go on and get MSN/ PhD whatever very much. But let's keep a modicum of respect for ALL nurses, shall we? I have great respect for those who seek always to learn and improve in their careers as nurses. I know people who travel far and wide to attend seminars and classes pertaining to their specialities, ADN, diploma, BSN, MSN...they are the BEST nurses cause their quest to stay "cutting edge" sets them aside and makes them better nurses in my book. Education can be obtained in many ways, and I always have deep respect for those who take the initiative to do this. I will never put down or take away anything from anyone who educated, as long as they are NOT arrogant about it.
Oh and to all-BSN entry proponents (which I am beginning to think is not a bad idea as long as we grandfather current nurses), I have a big question:
WHAT OF LPN's??? Do you realize a huge segment of population out there does NOT KNOW THE difference between RN and LPN????
I think it comes from people feeling disrespected. ADN nurses feel disrespected when someone says the minimum to practice should be a degree that they don't have (especially when they have already proven their fitness as nurses). BSN nurses feel disrespected when they are told their degree is useless. Who can blame either of them if that's what they are reading. Then the cycle begins.
As an aside, this is actually the only reason I think there should be one route to RN (to end the which is better debate).
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I think the disrespect for ADN's is much more common. And when you disrespect ADN RN's you disrespect 60% of of the RN population. I say, we all need to stop disrespecting each other, attempt to respect what each has to bring to the table, so to speak, and quit being so divisive. It's high time to accept RNs as RN's, period. IF a person has aspirations to attain more education and move "up" more power to him/her. But it does NOT gain respect from ME when an "educated" person LORDS it over others like some do.
And I don't appreciate bogus studies saying BSN's deliver safer care from none other than 4-year university proponents or the AMA. That means nothing to me but MORE divisiveness. ENOUGH ALREADY!
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by hbscott
So much anger in this thread. What is up with that?
-HBS
I am sorry, obviously I fail to convey what I mean to say.....ugh...
again.
Hbscott, YOU have anger issues too, from what I see. Just about other things. but from what I gather, you have been abused and disrespected. so you should SEE VERY EASILY where some of are coming from......I dont' need a PhD to understand a basic tenet:
respect is important to ALL people!!! (not just the most educated among us).......
Sadly, there is a lot of disrespect in this and other threads on all sides.
Deb I think that depends on where you are sitting:) I have heard more than a few nasty BSN comments, and the fact that 60% of nurses are ADNs means that there is a larger pool to disrespect BSNs than the other way around (cause few people would say their own program is the wrong one). I do think there are more studies that would offend ADNs though. Either way, this is why I think the whole nursing education should be redone.
If I ruled the world, I would streamline all nursing programs. No more pre-reqs. They would be incorporated into the program. I would make the program 3-4 years long and it would award a Bachelor's degree (only because most ADNs are in school that long anyways, they might as well get a Bachelors in case they want to get a Masters). It would not incorporate management courses (cause a Masters is required for that here anyways), and it would consider past education or experience for advanced placement. It would focus on patient care.
I came from a school where the Diploma and BSN were EXACTLY the same, except the BSN students did another 6 months. The BSN was not pricier or filled with non-nursing classes and had more clinical, not less. I thought it combined the best of the 2 educations.
As an aside, this is actually the only reason I think there should be one route to RN (to end the which is better debate).
I would agree that could go a long way in resolving some of the confusion that exists within the profession and society in general. If you look at the professions of medicine, law, engineering, etc you don't see the fragmented entry level you do in nursing.
This issue has been a proveribal thorn in nursing's side for a long time.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Originally posted by fergus51
.
If I ruled the world, I would streamline all nursing programs. No more pre-reqs. They would be incorporated into the program. I would make the program 3-4 years long and it would award a Bachelor's degree (only because most ADNs are in school that long anyways, they might as well get a Bachelors in case they want to get a Masters). It would not incorporate management courses (cause a Masters is required for that here anyways), and it would consider past education or experience for advanced placement. It would focus on patient care.
I came from a school where the Diploma and BSN were EXACTLY the same, except the BSN students did another 6 months. The BSN was not pricier or filled with non-nursing classes and had more clinical, not less. I thought it combined the best of the 2 educations.
As usual, you are a voice of reason. I like to think Iam too. I agree, Streamline the process. ALL that OTHER stuff which is VERY costly in the USA, (like western civ, etc) can be learned at cheaper cost at my library. I DO read and love to learn. I want to study NURSING, not pay big bucks.........like we do now. I think ONE point of entry is NEEDED....yes I do.
If I had my way, we would be educated the way Diploma nurses were and are in some areas. But it would be RECOGNIZED as a professional degree. There is SO MUCH TO LEARN AND SO LITTLE TIME. NO ONE Leaves nursing school "competent" to practice independently in my book, not even BSN's. STREAMLINE IT....so that we all are educated similarly. END the DIVISIVENESS and BACKBITING COMMENTARY AND LYING STUDIES......
that would be a start....
I still want to know: where does this leave LPN's, and what would their role be?????
athomas91
1,093 Posts
when reading the posts of the OP - my interpretation is of someone who actually does feel inadequate about the degree they are obtaining and is trying to belittle others to feel better...just my 2 cents...
however....more education doesn't make a good nurse...you have to have it to begin with that special something...but when you take 2 good nurses and one goes further w/ their education - they are only bound to be better! If you think that a BSN doesn't give you more education, more critical thinking skills, more understaning of physiology and pathophysiology and pharmocology then you just plain haven't done your research. Many hospitals in my area (HOPKINS included are phasing out anyone w/o a bsn - those that don't have one can obtain one free through the school by virtue of being an employee) and the last hospital i worked in used lpn's on the floors and although they were apparently good nurses - they couldn't do 1/2 their job (assessments and iv pushes) which made it a huge burden on those w/ a degree of some sort.
you stated that you learn everything you need to know in school - if you feel this way you should stop now...because you LEARN NOTHING IN SCHOOL as far as what the real world of nursing is about...
and as for BSN's being safer etc....my program required me to read ekgs, know acls etc prior to me graduating...so i believe that i had a huge headstart out of the gate - i was leaps and bounds above others who took at least 1-2 years to be as efficient at those things...but that is just another benefit of BSN - a longer stretch of time to teach you .....
I feel sorry for you because if you go into the nursing feild with this attitude you will surely be eaten alive.