Low Down on Nursing Education

live4today, RN · Jan 31, 2004

A Masters Degree in Nursing is required in order to be a Unit Nurse Manager where I use to work. And...that's a good thing AS LONG AS those master degreed nurses have a lot of bedside nursing experience under their belts. The degree itself isn't worth a hill of beans without the hands on experience of patient care.

As far as "MDs respecting nurses" go.........NOT true of most of the docs I've come across in my 17 years as a nurse. Whenever I would float to an intensive care floor, I noticed the nurses there were treated with more respect than the nurses on a medical/surgical floor. It's as if the docs only could respect a nurse if they were viewed as their equals in medicine. The "rumor" about med/surg nurses is we are not as smart, therefore we only are good for doing "task work". :rolleyes: Sooooooooo NOT true.

I have a minor in psych and sociology along with my major in nursing, and I'm still contemplating pursuing psych and sociology so I can become a counselor. That's just one of my thoughts of what to do with my career path at this point in my life. :nurse:

ADNRN · Jan 31, 2004

Originally posted by cheerfuldoer
As far as "MDs respecting nurses" go.........NOT true of most of the docs I've come across in my 17 years as a nurse. Whenever I would float to an intensive care floor, I noticed the nurses there were treated with more respect than the nurses on a medical/surgical floor. It's as if the docs only could respect a nurse if they were viewed as their equals in medicine. The "rumor" about med/surg nurses is we are not as smart, therefore we only are good for doing "task work". Sooooooooo NOT true.

As for doctors not treating nurses with respect, I suppose that depends on where you work and how you present yourself, and whether the doctor is a orifice. I don't compare myself with MDs. To me they're essential for the dx and tx of my patient's illness, so I need them. I care for my patients needs because they can't do it for themselves. That's my profession (or will be). I mean, I respect doctors, but then I call the lady in the cafeteria "ma'am" and the janitor "sir", and I do so without pretense, so there you go. I respect everyone. And you know, it's funny, as an aid and a NS, I get absolutely zero respect from anyone, save the lady in the cafeteria and the janitor who both call me "sir." Why would I ever expect anything more? Who am I to be treated like an emperor? All that matters to me is my competency in caring for my patient and that my patient feels that I truly want to care for him or her.

So, you're thinking of leaving nursing to become a counselor? Or are you thinking of becoming an advanced practice psych nurse, or maybe a psych nurse practitioner? I must admit, I hated my psych rotation. I had two patients: one was a young man who had everything going for him and had a total psycotic break. I knew he wasn't faking because he was so desperate to get out and he didn't think there was anything wrong with him at all. That broke my heart. I couldn't stand that.

The other guy was an antisocial PD. All he wanted to do was tell me gross sexual stories and manipulate me into believing he would kill if he was put out of the hospital. His goal in life was to be an inpatient. I couldn't stand that either.

More power to you, absolutely.

SmilingBluEyes · Jan 31, 2004

Your post is so full of flaws, I can't address them all. I will let the good folks here do it for me. Remember, you are still in school yet and you have a LOT TO LEARN; that much is obvious.

I hope you are not "trolling" for trouble. I sense it, somehow with the posts you have made. You have a long way to go to becoming an RN, from what I see.

Well, anyhow I wish you the best in your journey to be a nurse; I hope you open your mind enough to learn something while in school. You certainly dont' know it all. But then again, None of us do.

ADNRN · Jan 31, 2004

Originally posted by SmilingBluEyes
Your post is so full of flaws, I can't address them all. I will let the good folks here do it for me. Remember, you are still in school yet and you have a LOT TO LEARN; that much is obvious.

I hope you are not "trolling" for trouble. I sense it, somehow with the posts you have made. You have a long way to go to becoming an RN, from what I see.

Well, anyhow I wish you the best in your journey to be a nurse; I hope you open your mind enough to learn something while in school. You certainly dont' know it all. But then again, None of us do.

Deb, without trying to sound rude, could I ask you to please get off my back. You hurl insult after insult at me and then call me a troll who's looking for trouble. I think that's the pot calling the kettle black. I've never been rude to you, and I really don't need to hear your condescension or opinions of me.

SmilingBluEyes · Jan 31, 2004

I am sorry. ...but I feel you ARE trying to "start"something. I see i it alot ...If I am wrong, let me go on record as apologizing for that. But I still disagree with your post. I have that right. As you do to rebuke my viewpoint. We both need to separate personal attacks from honest criticism. Have a good day now. I am duly chagrined.

New CCU RN · Jan 31, 2004

Originally posted by ADNRN
In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.

1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.

2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.

3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.

4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.

5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.

6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.

7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.

And I disagree with this entirely:

1. While nursing was primarily diploma programs in the past, nursing is now primarily degree programs. Just like our fellow allied health professionals such as Pharmacists and PT's have increased the amount of schooling, so has nursing. As far as on the job training, what profession doesn't often encompass this? For the basic skills, routine of it yes... it is on the job ie) perfecting your IV starts. But are nurses robots?? Or are we also critical thinkers, analyzing, interpreting, teaching our patients, etc. That isn't soley from being on the job... it is based on the fundaments of one's education.....

2. While I am sure educators are the ones pushing the most for BSN's, I will let you know that many, many facilities are seeking BSNs. In fact, the hospital I work for as a staff nurse will only hire BSN's.

3. Most management positions now require a master's degree.

4. Some MD's respect nurses......many others don't. I have personally gained respect from MD's one the job by my care and my input in the care of my critically ill patients, but also sharing the things I am doing outside of my job... like working on a second BS and taking grad classes... that has personally brought the most respect from them..... this is just in my personal experience

5. Continuing education involves being a lifetime learner.... in many aspects... gaining a formal degree, reading journals, researching current practices, learning things outside of nursing but that would make you better rounded......all of these are continuing ed.... not just doing your minimum # of ceu's

6. Don't really understand what you are saying.

7. Check your facts, there is a huge CRNA shortage....

fiestynurse · Jan 31, 2004

ADNRN - Your post is not only flawed, but it shows your lack of education.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Jan 31, 2004

Originally posted by fiestynurse
ADNRN - Your post is not only flawed, but it shows your lack of education.

I agree with Blue Eyes and Feisty

barb4575 · Jan 31, 2004

Yes, BSN faculty push BSN education, but so do nurses who have their BSN's...it is ingrained into a BSN nursing student from the beginning of his/her socialization. I did teach in an ADN program while in graduate school, because I could...I must admit the program was superb and in those two years, all graduates passed the NCLEX...today, some have returned to school to obtain their BSN and some have not...some are leaders in their chosen specialty area...some never will be in a leadership role...

When I attained my MSN, I chose not to remain involved in ADN education and taught at a BSN program. I believe in the ANA's proposal for entry level into practice as the BSN for the professional RN even though I am well aware that it most probably won't occur in my lifetime. There is a difference and I have seen it in education and in practice. However, I also want to make one thing very clear, nursing students who are passionate about becoming a nurse will be superb nurses regardless of their education. They will be self-taught until they get there and then continue their lifelong learning. Some students are inborn leaders and some will never lead regardless of the degree.

The bottom line is that in 21.5 years of practice, some things never change...if one has an ADN, they usually propose that this is suitable for the role of staff nurse...if one has a BSN, they know different and it is the intelligent BSN nurse leader who reveals this to the ADN by example and not by senseless verbage. I have taught many students and always encourage them to make a significant difference, but I remind them that it is not worth their time to engage in a ADN vs. BSN war with an ADN...people make choices. If they don't have it, they didn't want it for whatever reason.

Regardless of your intent in writing this post, people have opinions...we don't have to agree with each other and as a faculty member, we don't have to respond. But, I have because it is important to me...I know what I need to improve my effectiveness as a nurse educator and I plan on doing what it takes-which is to remain active in practice coupled with obtaining a PhD in Education.

I have encouraged my students at different levels to visit this site as I have learned and enjoyed most of what I have read...it is my hope that some of those students will not only read this post, but be brave enough to respond in a professional manner. I look at my Foundations students and in just a few weeks, they have shown me incredible progress in their attempt to define critical thinking. I have read their journals and what they have told me is that they really want to be a nurse...being 45, I am proud to begin their socialization process.

I wish you success in your career,

Barbara

angel337, MSN, RN · Jan 31, 2004

in reply to "low down on nursing education" i wish that nurses were more supportive of education. why are nurses so touchy about who has a BSN or an ADN? if you are satisfied with your level of eduation that's all that matters. there is a big misconception that a BSN is only for management, which is not true. in fact, a bachelor's degree will be a minimum requirement in the future so i encourage nurses to not become stagnant and cocky with the so called "security" of nursing. i once had a nurse tell me "why are you getting a BSN, it is a waste of time". education is NEVER a waste of time. do we scorn our doctors, lawyers and accountants for having higher degrees, i think not. we want our children to have the best teachers (which requires higher education) but we don't want a nurse, who literally may have your life in her hands to have "education". something is wrong with this picture. all nurses have invaluable knowledge and we need to not place ourselves so far down on the totem pole. and people wonder why nurses are not considered "professionals"

SharonH, RN · Jan 31, 2004

Originally posted by ADNRN
In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.

1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.

2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.

4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.

5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.

6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.

7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.

You are wrong. You assume that nursing is merely a task-oriented profession, the skills of which can be taught on the job and you are wrong.A professional nurse needs to know not only what she does, but why she does it and that knowledge is acquired through education in the form of microbiology, chemistry, mathematics, etc. Some of the worst nurses I have ever worked with are those who are only capable of following a physician order and completing their assigned "tasks" with no understanding of why it was so critical those tasks are performed or what the consequences of not doing them. If you believe that knowledge can all be acquired on the job, you are wrong.These same nurses are also unable to work outside of the box in any given situation and have no critical thinking skills. They probably listened to someone such as yourself and believed that nursing required no education. I consider them dangerous.

As far as competing with MD's, the only ones who believe that nurses compete with MD's are physicians, and they are mightily threatened by that. If you believe that nurses seeking higher education are trying to compete with MD's then once again, you are wrong. Nursing is a profession within itself and nursing research and education is needed which is not the same as medical research and education.

You're a nurse? I find that disturbing. Clearly, you don't have a lot of respect for the profession and science of nursing or at the very least, you have a limited understanding of it. It's obvious that there are associate degree and diploma nurses who provide competent and professional care. But you are wrong if you think that nurses with higher degrees are not needed outside of management ranks.

I also agree with every word of angel337's post.