How should I handle CNA

heron, ASN, RN · Sep 14

Other users with better people skills than I have will be able to give more specific advice. This is just my thoughts as I read your post.

The first person to reach out to is the CNA in question, with support people for both parties if necessary. Your request was appropriate. His job is, after all, assisting nurses. His way of dealing with your request was unnecessarily rude.

All that being said, you get the respect you give. If you want him to respect your job - and your authority to direct his work, then you need to respect him and his job the same way. It's highly likely he doesn't want to work with you, either, and has less choice about it.

I suggest that running off to complain to management might not be the best first move. Of course, if s/he's a good manager, s/he can advise the next steps and facilitate communication. If s/he isn't, getting mgmt involved might escalate hostilities and make the situation permanent. Trust me, you don't want to shoot yourself in the foot by antagonizing your crew.

Of course, if it turns out that the guy is just a bully checking to see how far he can go to mess with a new nurse, all bets are off. By all means turn it over to management and wash your hands of it.

JKL33 · Sep 14

heron said:

All that being said, you get the respect you give. If you want him to respect your job - and your authority to direct his work, then you need to respect him and his job the same way. It's highly likely he doesn't want to work with you, either, and has less choice about it.

Curious why you add that last sentence--unless it's just that it sounds like the NA has a chip on his shoulder? We would need to assume a lot that wasn't part of the story in order for him to have a good reason to not want to work with the OP. If this guy already knows that he doesn't want to work with this nurse because he was asked to assist a patient >> he's the problem. That is unacceptable.

A person may be more likely to not get respect if they don't give respect, but the opposite most certainly is not true--you definitely don't always receive respect just because you try to be respectful. There is nothing rude or disrespectful about the request as it was reported to have been made, nor about the OP replying that the request didn't need to take priority over the task he was already involved in.

***

How to handle is indeed the question, and I suppose it somewhat depends on personality, personal preference and other individual or environment-specific factors.

Ultimately I would not entertain this. But IRL I try very hard to build a rapport before deciding that it's a lost cause and utilizing other means. In real life I would approach in a very friendly and casual manner, smile and make friendly-type eye contact (being careful to not give him ANY reason to say the demeanor was flirty or creepy) and say something along the lines, 'hey, I just wanted to let you know I'm never going to try to dump on you; I plan on us getting along great and you should give it a chance..."

I'm 99% sure this type of person is manipulative. Straight up manipulative and already trying to scare people into not wanting to approach him, or getting them conditioned to walk on egg shells treating him all special to prove they aren't dumping on him. This behavior is identifiable from a mile away. Dumping is when nurses sit or stand around socializing or doing non-work activities while the NAs work. And that is wrong; it always has been. It is unacceptable. However, it is not "dumping" when RNs are busy doing things that only RNs can do and NAs are busy doing work that is within their job description. Period. If RNs are busy with RN-only tasks and the NAs don't feel that their workload is appropriate or if they feel the NA staffing is inadequate for the amount of work that falls within the NA job description, they need to take that up with their manager.

heron, ASN, RN · Sep 14

JKL33 said:

Curious why you add that last sentence--unless it's just that it sounds like the NA has a chip on his shoulder? We would need to assume a lot that wasn't part of the story in order for him to have a good reason to not want to work with the OP. If this guy already knows that he doesn't want to work with this nurse because he was asked to assist a patient >> he's the problem. That is unacceptable.

A person may be more likely to not get respect if they don't give respect, but the opposite most certainly is not true--you definitely don't always receive respect just because you try to be respectful. There is nothing rude or disrespectful about the request as it was reported to have been made, nor about the OP replying that the request didn't need to take priority over the task he was already involved in.

***

How to handle is indeed the question, and I suppose it somewhat depends on personality, personal preference and other individual or environment-specific factors.

Ultimately I would not entertain this. But IRL I try very hard to build a rapport before deciding that it's a lost cause and utilizing other means. In real life I would approach in a very friendly and casual manner, smile and make friendly-type eye contact (being careful to not give him ANY reason to say the demeanor was flirty or creepy) and say something along the lines, 'hey, I just wanted to let you know I'm never going to try to dump on you; I plan on us getting along great and you should give it a chance..."

I'm 99% sure this type of person is manipulative. Straight up manipulative and already trying to scare people into not wanting to approach him, or getting them conditioned to walk on egg shells treating him all special to prove they aren't dumping on him. This behavior is identifiable from a mile away. Dumping is when nurses sit or stand around socializing or doing non-work activities while the NAs work. And that is wrong; it always has been. It is unacceptable. However, it is not "dumping" when RNs are busy doing things that only RNs can do and NAs are busy doing work that is within their job description. Period. If RNs are busy with RN-only tasks and the NAs don't feel that their workload is appropriate or if they feel the NA staffing is inadequate for the amount of work that falls within the NA job description, they need to take that up with their manager.

You're making a lot of assumptions about the CNA based on very little information.

May I remind you that we only have one side of the story? The request as reported was both appropriate and respectful. The operative phrase is "as reported". The OP's memory might well be very different from the CNA's experience of the incident. So far, all we know is that the CNA was interrupted doing another task, and that one of the nurses is a gossip.( Remember that old game of telephone?)

Respect begins with the benefit of the doubt.

Start out the way you mean to go on.

happymama · Sep 14

heron said:

You're making a lot of assumptions about the CNA based on very little information.

May I remind you that we only have one side of the story? The request as reported was both appropriate and respectful. The operative phrase is "as reported". The OP's memory might well be very different from the CNA's experience of the incident. So far, all we know is that the CNA was interrupted doing another task, and that one of the nurses is a gossip.( Remember that old game of telephone?)

Respect begins with the benefit of the doubt.

Start out the way you mean to go on.

I can see your point. A little back story since we are training off site I have only worked with the CNA for a week and really only had 2 interactions with him. One was waiting for him because to greet since week one of working/training was at a different site (there are 2 techs) and 2nd I was teaching and showing everyone and incentive health program to get money (I have worked for the organization so know where to look and it needs to be completed by end of month). The nurses and I (the ones that will be working in the new location) have been taking our own patients out because we had assigned preceptors in only Phase 2. This particular day the PACU nurse had to do both phase one and phase 2 so they couldn't really leave just in case the patient comes out of OR. I offered to take the patient out to my preceptor but he (my preceptor) asked me to ask them if one of them can take the patient so we can finish charting.

They were both making the beds and looked to be almost done and I asked both of them politely if one of them could and when he said we are doing something I said no worries when you guys are done. From my understanding patient takes priority and one could of continued with beds and one could of taken the patient.

When I was helping one day a nurse asked me to escort a patient while I was making a bed and I immediately stopped to take the patient because I can always come back and finish dressing a bed

Like I stated before prior on multiple occasions this tech stated that the he will not be taken advantage off. One time I did state that in my other location we didn't even have a tech so I don't see that happening (which is true) and his response was Good then you know what to do (okay that might be the third interaction). And when one of my coworkers stated that he keeps stating that to her and another nurse (I was not present) and she stated why do you keep saying that we haven't even started.

Regardless I do not think my request was out of line. I did not ask rudely. The other tech actually came up do me and said sorry I do not know whats going on. They both left without telling anyone and the charge that we are working under and they needed patients moved and they kept asking me where they were and I did not know. They have been off the unit for 2+ hours. That is when the charge stated that I should address it with my manager because that is unacceptable.

heron, ASN, RN · Sep 14

happymama said:

I can see your point. A little back story since we are training off site I have only worked with the CNA for a week and really only had 2 interactions with him. One was waiting for him because to greet since week one of working/training was at a different site (there are 2 techs) and 2nd I was teaching and showing everyone and incentive health program to get money (I have worked for the organization so know where to look and it needs to be completed by end of month). The nurses and I (the ones that will be working in the new location) have been taking our own patients out because we had assigned preceptors in only Phase 2. This particular day the PACU nurse had to do both phase one and phase 2 so they couldn't really leave just in case the patient comes out of OR. I offered to take the patient out to my preceptor but he (my preceptor) asked me to ask them if one of them can take the patient so we can finish charting.

They were both making the beds and looked to be almost done and I asked both of them politely if one of them could and when he said we are doing something I said no worries when you guys are done. From my understanding patient takes priority and one could of continued with beds and one could of taken the patient.

When I was helping one day a nurse asked me to escort a patient while I was making a bed and I immediately stopped to take the patient because I can always come back and finish dressing a bed

Like I stated before prior on multiple occasions this tech stated that the he will not be taken advantage off. One time I did state that in my other location we didn't even have a tech so I don't see that happening (which is true) and his response was Good then you know what to do (okay that might be the third interaction). And when one of my coworkers stated that he keeps stating that to her and another nurse (I was not present) and she stated why do you keep saying that we haven't even started.

Regardless I do not think my request was out of line. I did not ask rudely. The other tech actually came up do me and said sorry I do not know whats going on. They both left without telling anyone and the charge that we are working under and they needed patients moved and they kept asking me where they were and I did not know. They have been off the unit for 2+ hours. That is when the charge stated that I should address it with my manager because that is unacceptable.

Thanks for the info. Good luck in the new facility. The best way to deal with workplace toxicity is to not let it go there to begin with. Putting slackers and bullies in check is just as important as respecting honest coworkers who work as hard as you do. Good for you for knowing the difference.

happymama · Sep 14

heron said:

You're making a lot of assumptions about the CNA based on very little information.

May I remind you that we only have one side of the story? The request as reported was both appropriate and respectful. The operative phrase is "as reported". The OP's memory might well be very different from the CNA's experience of the incident. So far, all we know is that the CNA was interrupted doing another task, and that one of the nurses is a gossip.( Remember that old game of telephone?)

Respect begins with the benefit of the doubt.

Start out the way you mean to go on.

JKL33 said:

Curious why you add that last sentence--unless it's just that it sounds like the NA has a chip on his shoulder? We would need to assume a lot that wasn't part of the story in order for him to have a good reason to not want to work with the OP. If this guy already knows that he doesn't want to work with this nurse because he was asked to assist a patient >> he's the problem. That is unacceptable.

A person may be more likely to not get respect if they don't give respect, but the opposite most certainly is not true--you definitely don't always receive respect just because you try to be respectful. There is nothing rude or disrespectful about the request as it was reported to have been made, nor about the OP replying that the request didn't need to take priority over the task he was already involved in.

***

How to handle is indeed the question, and I suppose it somewhat depends on personality, personal preference and other individual or environment-specific factors.

Ultimately I would not entertain this. But IRL I try very hard to build a rapport before deciding that it's a lost cause and utilizing other means. In real life I would approach in a very friendly and casual manner, smile and make friendly-type eye contact (being careful to not give him ANY reason to say the demeanor was flirty or creepy) and say something along the lines, 'hey, I just wanted to let you know I'm never going to try to dump on you; I plan on us getting along great and you should give it a chance..."

I'm 99% sure this type of person is manipulative. Straight up manipulative and already trying to scare people into not wanting to approach him, or getting them conditioned to walk on egg shells treating him all special to prove they aren't dumping on him. This behavior is identifiable from a mile away. Dumping is when nurses sit or stand around socializing or doing non-work activities while the NAs work. And that is wrong; it always has been. It is unacceptable. However, it is not "dumping" when RNs are busy doing things that only RNs can do and NAs are busy doing work that is within their job description. Period. If RNs are busy with RN-only tasks and the NAs don't feel that their workload is appropriate or if they feel the NA staffing is inadequate for the amount of work that falls within the NA job description, they need to take that up with their manager.

That is how the team is starting to feel. I gave more details in the comments above. We have not had much interaction with the techs since they were at another site. In a team meeting he stated that not to wait on a tech to do something but I didn't think much of it because we didn't even have techs (which were much needed) in our unit (which me and my current manager both came from). I did ask my manager if she wanted me to address him and she said no she will 100% do it because it wasn't acceptable. We are not at our home base so with his behavior and how he acts I don't think addressing him at our training location would have been wise anyway.

happymama · Sep 14

heron said:

Thanks for the info. Good luck in the new facility. The best way to deal with workplace toxicity is to not let it go there to begin with. Putting slackers and bullies in check is just as important as respecting honest coworkers who work as hard as you do. Good for you for knowing the difference.

Thank you. And I also see your point about just addressing him but with his attitude and us not being at our main location (we are guest at another hospital) I thought it best to reach out to my manager as advised by the charge. When discussed with manager I did ask if she just wants me to address it and she said no she will 100% address it and that she thought this might happen because in the interview he stated that the used and abused him in the ER and he might have PTSD about it. I told her we would never do that (at least from my end) Trust me I am not one to ever take advantage and we are happy to have them but those comments are not acceptable. I'm honestly grateful that we even have techs but since we are all training I do as much as I can without their assistance. Its not easy working off site and we are all in this together

JKL33 · Sep 14

heron said:

You're making a lot of assumptions about the CNA based on very little information.

May I remind you that we only have one side of the story? The request as reported was both appropriate and respectful. The operative phrase is "as reported". The OP's memory might well be very different from the CNA's experience of the incident. So far, all we know is that the CNA was interrupted doing another task, and that one of the nurses is a gossip.( Remember that old game of telephone?)

Respect begins with the benefit of the doubt.

Start out the way you mean to go on.

I am making very few assumptions. That a strange accusation given that, by your admission, your reply (which included the guess that the NA is "highly unlikely to want to work with" this RN based on nothing other than having been asked to assist a patient while he was making a bed. And the fact that we only know one side of the story, which is always true but nothing about this story suggests that there is much more to it. Not sure what else can be said. This entire job, theirs and ours, involves this exact general scenario of being asked to do something, being needed or being interrupted with a next request while we are doing things. The days of BON bons are long past. We ALL work in this "I'm already busy" scenario almost 100% of the time.

Someone who is not trying to be aggressive and manipulative doesn't double down and come back after the fact to ask whether someone's legs are broken. You know that as well as I do. He is trying to make someone else feel ashamed and humiliated for what is a normal part of the job, whether he likes that nature of the job or not. HIS statement, regardless of delivery, IS manipulative in its face. Asking someone to assist a patient is not, on its face, abusive, manipulative, dumping, rude or anything else. You have to assume that the person requesting had a poor delivery style in order to get to the *possibility* of inappropriateness.

Yes we only have one side of the story as is always true here. No reminders needed.

This OP has a preceptor, I will admit that I "assume" they are at least somewhat new to some part of this scenario.

JKL33 · Sep 14

Well, anyway....OP, long story short try normal, polite and professional ways to build a rapport with this person. If this behavior of his is a pattern let management handle it; it is their responsibility and that point.

allnurses Guide · Sep 14

JKL33 said:

when RNs are busy doing things that only RNs can do and NAs are busy doing work that is within their job description. Period. If RNs are busy with RN-only tasks and the NAs don't feel that their workload is appropriate or if they feel the NA staffing is inadequate for the amount of work that falls within the NA job description, they need to take that up with their manager.

JK, I'd like to use this quote as part of an aswer to another topic about RN/CNA roles.

Been there,done that, ASN, RN · Sep 14

CNA knows you are a new nurse. He is attempting to prevent you from asking him for help in the future. Best way to handle it is.. be firm and repeat your request. " The beds can wait. I need to make room for this OR patient now."