In a former life, I was an education counselor, so from that perspective, let me set a few things straight about education and the RN.
1. Nurses, don't require a degree. For most of the time, nurses were taught in diploma schools and some still are. Most of what a nurse learns is learned on the job. All education is great, but if a nurse is really going to be "well rounded" by education, they should have a bachelor's degree in one of the liberal art subjects and then nursing school.
2. The people who are most concerned about nurses having BSNs as entry level education are the educators. No big surprise there. Most hospitals couldn't care less, because they need people liscensed by the state as registered nurses.
3. Management requires a BSN only because there are a limited number of management slots, and education is a way of legitimately weeding applicants out. My boss was an ADN and manager of a cardiac unit for about 20 years before getting her BSN. In reality, a nurse would be better served with a A.A. in business management than a BSN if they are going to be managers.
4. MDs respect nurses. They don't really care how much education a nurse has because whatever education they have is not an MD and that's all they recognize. Why? Because they're MDs; it's a different profession. RNs are just as good as MDs, because in modern health care, both are essential for patient care and treatment. Competeing with MDs for professional status based on educational qualifications is a fool's game. The MD is considered the top of the educational food chain. But why would a nurse need or want a doctorate of medicine? They are equal with doctors in the profession of helping sick people even if they only went to a diploma school.
5. Continuing education is more important than formal academic degrees. What difference does it make if someone got their MSN 20 years ago? What have they done lately? Subscribe to three nursing mags and do their CEUs and you will be on top of the game. Combine that with national certification and you really have something that shows current competency.
6. It's true: if you want to be a psychotherapist, you need a MSW or some equivalent. Why? Because there is a glut of people getting BSc degrees in psychology and sociology. Why? because they're easy degrees. If the world needed therapists as much as they needed nurses, you'd have therapy schools with AASc programs just like nursing schools. In fact, look at the military: When the Air Force needs nurses they will commission nurses with ADNs. When they don't, they require a BSN. We aren't competing with other professions; we are nurses.
7. What I am saying will always be the case, and why? Because there will always be a nursing shortage, and not because of demographics, but because nursing takes a certain kind of person, and it's hard work. There is a shortage of bedside nurses; there always will be. There is no shortage of nurse managers or executives or NPs or CRNAs, and that's good news. Because if you really want to be a nurse, you can be and you don't have to continously seek after more and more degrees. You will always have a job, and you can be a professional person with initials after your name, and all that with only a diploma.
The vocational training I got in the Navy got my foot in the door in health care.
My Associate's Of Science Degree in Surgical Technology solidified my decision to pursue health care as a career. The community college also boosted my confidence and helped to "demystify" college for me.
My Bachelor's of Science in Nursing allowed me to sharpen my health care skills and opened up even more doors for me in the health care arena.
My Master's of Science Degree improved my critical thinking skills and allowed me the opportunity to pursue advanced practice roles in and out of nursing.
My PhD work will contribute to the body of knowledge in my chosen field (heath care informatics) and hopefully lead to further scientific discoveries that improve health care deliverly.
Education and Training is a very valuable opportunity that should not be wasted. Each proverbial rung in the ladder is equally important and all contribute to the fulfillment of our potential.
Being highly educated doesn't make me a good person or a good nurse for that matter. However being highly educated does empower me in many ways to be better equipped to do my job and for that I am grateful.
Specializes in Case Mgmt; Mat/Child, Critical Care.
Originally posted by SharonMH31
You are wrong. You assume that nursing is merely a task-oriented profession, the skills of which can be taught on the job and you are wrong.A professional nurse needs to know not only what she does, but why she does it and that knowledge is acquired through education in the form of microbiology, chemistry, mathematics, etc. Some of the worst nurses I have ever worked with are those who are only capable of following a physician order and completing their assigned "tasks" with no understanding of why it was so critical those tasks are performed or what the consequences of not doing them. If you believe that knowledge can all be acquired on the job, you are wrong.These same nurses are also unable to work outside of the box in any given situation and have no critical thinking skills. They probably listened to someone such as yourself and believed that nursing required no education. I consider them dangerous.
As far as competing with MD's, the only ones who believe that nurses compete with MD's are physicians, and they are mightily threatened by that. If you believe that nurses seeking higher education are trying to compete with MD's then once again, you are wrong. Nursing is a profession within itself and nursing research and education is needed which is not the same as medical research and education.
You're a nurse? I find that disturbing. Clearly, you don't have a lot of respect for the profession and science of nursing or at the very least, you have a limited understanding of it. It's obvious that there are associate degree and diploma nurses who provide competent and professional care. But you are wrong if you think that nurses with higher degrees are not needed outside of management ranks.
I also agree with every word of angel337's post.
Excellent post, Sharon! ITA!
PS. In one of the OP's threads he stated that he's a student...I believe 1st semester, perhaps...I'd need to double check that, but HIS lack of education and knowledge is obvious.
In a way, I can see what's happenning...he's probably taking an undergrad philosophy or ethics class, he's got himself all fired up about becoming a nurse and wants to "impress" others w/his newfound knowledge. LOL :chuckle He has a long way to go...
1. While nursing was primarily diploma programs in the past, nursing is now primarily degree programs. Just like our fellow allied health professionals such as Pharmacists and PT's have increased the amount of schooling, so has nursing. As far as on the job training, what profession doesn't often encompass this? For the basic skills, routine of it yes... it is on the job ie) perfecting your IV starts. But are nurses robots?? Or are we also critical thinkers, analyzing, interpreting, teaching our patients, etc. That isn't soley from being on the job... it is based on the fundaments of one's education.....
2. While I am sure educators are the ones pushing the most for BSN's, I will let you know that many, many facilities are seeking BSNs. In fact, the hospital I work for as a staff nurse will only hire BSN's.
3. Most management positions now require a master's degree.
4. Some MD's respect nurses......many others don't. I have personally gained respect from MD's one the job by my care and my input in the care of my critically ill patients, but also sharing the things I am doing outside of my job... like working on a second BS and taking grad classes... that has personally brought the most respect from them..... this is just in my personal experience
5. Continuing education involves being a lifetime learner.... in many aspects... gaining a formal degree, reading journals, researching current practices, learning things outside of nursing but that would make you better rounded......all of these are continuing ed.... not just doing your minimum # of ceu's
6. Don't really understand what you are saying.
7. Check your facts, there is a huge CRNA shortage....
1. Everything you needed to be a nurse, you were able to learn within nursing school. Currently, nursing school can be done through diploma programs. Granted, one needs a basic education to get through nursing school and to think critically. Perhaps that is best done through a college degree in liberal arts. I concede this point. It would be rare for someone to graduate high school only, then go through a diploma program, and be the critical thinker they need to be.
2. There are hospitals where I am that honor the BSN as well. They are not good hospitals and few want to work in them. They have lots of techs and LPNs, and patient care is not very good. But, everyone has their degree on their name tag--that's for sure. The huge county hospital with all the good stuff doesn't care whether or not you're a BSN or ADN. That's the one I want to work at (and do now as an aid). They don't hire LPNs at all. Granted, this is my experience of the situation. I have no idea what it is like elsewhere.
3. Where I live and work the hospital doesn't require an MSN for management. The only MSNs in the hospital where I work seem to be the nursing instructors from the various colleges. But again, I never said my post was anything than my own viewpoint.
4. I could care less about earning the respect of doctors by improving myself for them. They will respect me or not; I don't work for them, and I judge myself--I don't allow other's judgement to impact me. They need to dx and treat the pts medical condition; I need to provide care for the patient in all the ways he or she can't care for him or herself. I need the MDs orders in order to do that job. But with or without the MD, I'm still going to care for the patient within the dictates of my profession. What the doctor personally feels about me or my "status" in this world is wholly unimportant. That's how I feel about it.
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Remember the ***IGNORE*** feature if a person bothers you too much. It saves a lot of headaches and fighting. It's invaluable. I am a slow-learner myself.:roll
Yes, BSN faculty push BSN education, but so do nurses who have their BSN's...it is ingrained into a BSN nursing student from the beginning of his/her socialization. I did teach in an ADN program while in graduate school, because I could...I must admit the program was superb and in those two years, all graduates passed the NCLEX...today, some have returned to school to obtain their BSN and some have not...some are leaders in their chosen specialty area...some never will be in a leadership role...
When I attained my MSN, I chose not to remain involved in ADN education and taught at a BSN program. I believe in the ANA's proposal for entry level into practice as the BSN for the professional RN even though I am well aware that it most probably won't occur in my lifetime. There is a difference and I have seen it in education and in practice. However, I also want to make one thing very clear, nursing students who are passionate about becoming a nurse will be superb nurses regardless of their education. They will be self-taught until they get there and then continue their lifelong learning. Some students are inborn leaders and some will never lead regardless of the degree.
The bottom line is that in 21.5 years of practice, some things never change...if one has an ADN, they usually propose that this is suitable for the role of staff nurse...if one has a BSN, they know different and it is the intelligent BSN nurse leader who reveals this to the ADN by example and not by senseless verbage. I have taught many students and always encourage them to make a significant difference, but I remind them that it is not worth their time to engage in a ADN vs. BSN war with an ADN...people make choices. If they don't have it, they didn't want it for whatever reason.
Regardless of your intent in writing this post, people have opinions...we don't have to agree with each other and as a faculty member, we don't have to respond. But, I have because it is important to me...I know what I need to improve my effectiveness as a nurse educator and I plan on doing what it takes-which is to remain active in practice coupled with obtaining a PhD in Education.
I have encouraged my students at different levels to visit this site as I have learned and enjoyed most of what I have read...it is my hope that some of those students will not only read this post, but be brave enough to respond in a professional manner. I look at my Foundations students and in just a few weeks, they have shown me incredible progress in their attempt to define critical thinking. I have read their journals and what they have told me is that they really want to be a nurse...being 45, I am proud to begin their socialization process.
I wish you success in your career,
Barbara
Well, great Barbara, you're an educator and you feel everyone should at least have it "revealed" to them the superiority of the BSN in nursing. That's the point I was trying to make: Educators push the BSN. After all, it's their bread and butter. If I were a nursing school instructor at a university, I'd push it, too.
I do agree with your statement, however, that someone who loves nursing will become a great nurse regardless of their degree.
And I wish you success in your career. Keep studying!
Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
Barb all I will say, is you are right EDUCATION IS INVALUABLE....I will NEVER argue that. BUT I have a problem WITH PROPAGANDA! And I have severe heartburn with 4 year universities and ivory tower types putting out bogus 'studies" and "indoctrinating" people to believe the drivel that BSN nurses are somehow
safer
smarter
better
more hard-working
have better critical thinking skills
you name the superlative.....it's all been said before. but it does not make it true.
I heard it from one university, and I quit the program. I was not paying one more dime to hear propaganda like that. It's not what I paid to "learn" ! Too bad, so many buy it, however. At least in my online RN-BSN they don't push such crap down my throat. I know crap when I hear it.
I hope you are not one of these Ivory Tower type people myself. It's criminal in my book when they say these things. And divisive.
in reply to "low down on nursing education" i wish that nurses were more supportive of education. why are nurses so touchy about who has a BSN or an ADN? if you are satisfied with your level of eduation that's all that matters. there is a big misconception that a BSN is only for management, which is not true. in fact, a bachelor's degree will be a minimum requirement in the future so i encourage nurses to not become stagnant and cocky with the so called "security" of nursing. i once had a nurse tell me "why are you getting a BSN, it is a waste of time". education is NEVER a waste of time. do we scorn our doctors, lawyers and accountants for having higher degrees, i think not. we want our children to have the best teachers (which requires higher education) but we don't want a nurse, who literally may have your life in her hands to have "education". something is wrong with this picture. all nurses have invaluable knowledge and we need to not place ourselves so far down on the totem pole. and people wonder why nurses are not considered "professionals"
First off, nurses are considered professionals. At least in my state, it's listed under the statute for "professions" right there with MDs, dentists and cosmotoligists, and art therapists.
Second, education is important, degrees are not. Degrees are hoops we jump through to get jobs. But I do believe that the BSN will one day be the minimum entry degree, after all the baby boomers have died off. But since I am one of the baby boomers, I'm not too worried about it.
You are wrong. You assume that nursing is merely a task-oriented profession, the skills of which can be taught on the job and you are wrong.A professional nurse needs to know not only what she does, but why she does it and that knowledge is acquired through education in the form of microbiology, chemistry, mathematics, etc. Some of the worst nurses I have ever worked with are those who are only capable of following a physician order and completing their assigned "tasks" with no understanding of why it was so critical those tasks are performed or what the consequences of not doing them. If you believe that knowledge can all be acquired on the job, you are wrong.These same nurses are also unable to work outside of the box in any given situation and have no critical thinking skills. They probably listened to someone such as yourself and believed that nursing required no education. I consider them dangerous.
As far as competing with MD's, the only ones who believe that nurses compete with MD's are physicians, and they are mightily threatened by that. If you believe that nurses seeking higher education are trying to compete with MD's then once again, you are wrong. Nursing is a profession within itself and nursing research and education is needed which is not the same as medical research and education.
You're a nurse? I find that disturbing. Clearly, you don't have a lot of respect for the profession and science of nursing or at the very least, you have a limited understanding of it. It's obvious that there are associate degree and diploma nurses who provide competent and professional care. But you are wrong if you think that nurses with higher degrees are not needed outside of management ranks.
I also agree with every word of angel337's post.
Sorry to interupt your tirade of "I am wrongs" but I think you have a point, and I didn't consider it. A&P 1 and 2 and microbiology as well as gen psyc, soc, human growth and development, ect are required education for nurses. So yes, nurses probably need at least a three year education, which they get in most ADN programs. I think they even benefit from a bachelor's now, after reading your post and many others. I just don't see any particular need for a BSN. I mean it could be any bachelor's degree that had a good foundation in liberal arts subjects. MDs don't need a pre-med degree for med school, and lawyers don't need a pre-law degree for law school, maybe a nurse should be the same way? Maybe they should have to have a bachelor's of some kind /c prerequs before they can even get into a 2 year nursing school. I might agree with that.
I completely agree /c your second paragraph, but maybe I am wrong:confused:
The vocational training I got in the Navy got my foot in the door in health care.
My Associate's Of Science Degree in Surgical Technology solidified my decision to pursue health care as a career. The community college also boosted my confidence and helped to "demystify" college for me.
My Bachelor's of Science in Nursing allowed me to sharpen my health care skills and opened up even more doors for me in the health care arena.
My Master's of Science Degree improved my critical thinking skills and allowed me the opportunity to pursue advanced practice roles in and out of nursing.
My PhD work will contribute to the body of knowledge in my chosen field (heath care informatics) and hopefully lead to further scientific discoveries that improve health care deliverly.
Education and Training is a very valuable opportunity that should not be wasted. Each proverbial rung in the ladder is equally important and all contribute to fulfillment of our potential.
Being highly educated doesn't make me a good person or a good nurse for that matter. However being highly educated does empower me in many ways to be better equipped to do my job and for that I am grateful.
Right!. If you're going to be a researcher, a PhD is the thing. But I want to do the greatest highest thing in the world. I want to be a bedside nurse. While you pour over data on how I can clean a bottom better, I'll clean the bottom the best I can.
PS. In one of the OP's threads he stated that he's a student...I believe 1st semester, perhaps...I'd need to double check that, but HIS lack of education and knowledge is obvious.
In a way, I can see what's happenning...he's probably taking an undergrad philosophy or ethics class, he's got himself all fired up about becoming a nurse and wants to "impress" others w/his newfound knowledge. LOL :chuckle He has a long way to go...
JMHO
Yeah, maybe one day I'll learn to hate nursing, and love status so I can get away from the bedside. Then I'll really have made it. Until then, I guess I'll have to stupidly plod along learning about nursing and loving every minute of it.
Specializes in Step down, ICU, ER, PACU, Amb. Surg.
Right!. If you're going to be a researcher, a PhD is the thing. But I want to do the greatest highest thing in the world. I want to be a bedside nurse. While you pour over data on how I can clean a bottom better, I'll clean the bottom the best I can.
There is more to bedside nursing than cleaning bottoms and emptying bed pans. And nursing is a profession in all 50 states, I believe and if I am wrong, someone please correct me. However, the bedside nurse would not be ableto do their jobs better if it wasn't for the nursing researchers. And the nurse/doctor relationship is a symbiotic one. Each needs the other.....the nurse needs the doctor for the medical diagnosing and subsequent orders that come from it and the doctor depends on the bed side nurse to be EDUCATED and KNOWLEDGABLE so that the information he/she reports back to him/her aids and assists in the diagnosis and treatment of the patient.
ADNRN, I am not trying to pick but from a previous post of yours and this one, you would do well to leave your ivory tower and not act like you are superior to others. If you do not, you will have extreme trouble in the field of nursing. It is just that negative attitude and superior behavior that propigated the practice of nursing eating their young, which contributes to the nursing shortage.
I am a slow-learner myself.:roll
hbscott
416 Posts
The vocational training I got in the Navy got my foot in the door in health care.
My Associate's Of Science Degree in Surgical Technology solidified my decision to pursue health care as a career. The community college also boosted my confidence and helped to "demystify" college for me.
My Bachelor's of Science in Nursing allowed me to sharpen my health care skills and opened up even more doors for me in the health care arena.
My Master's of Science Degree improved my critical thinking skills and allowed me the opportunity to pursue advanced practice roles in and out of nursing.
My PhD work will contribute to the body of knowledge in my chosen field (heath care informatics) and hopefully lead to further scientific discoveries that improve health care deliverly.
Education and Training is a very valuable opportunity that should not be wasted. Each proverbial rung in the ladder is equally important and all contribute to the fulfillment of our potential.
Being highly educated doesn't make me a good person or a good nurse for that matter. However being highly educated does empower me in many ways to be better equipped to do my job and for that I am grateful.
-HBS