Let me be clear there is NO nursing shortage!!!!!!!!! and now THIS????

allnurses Guide · Aug 6, 2009

A BSN from some countries equate to lower degree in the USA. Not all BSNs are equal. Many ASN grads in the USA have a BS or BA so they truly have the best of both. Sad that only 13 % meet the very basic NCLEX standard which is the bare minimum of care. I would be impressed if the foreign nurses held credentials like Certification exams that critical care nurses, emergency room nurses, and others nursing organizations provide. It is rare to see an international nurse pass these advanced tests prior coming to the USA.

Speaking as someone with multiple years' experience in critical care, including postgraduate university qualifications - international nurses don't pass US credentialling tests prior to going to the US because they can't sit them there! I know I took the CCRN exam within 2 months of moving to the US so that I had a locally recognizable credential.

Look, there is no doubt that some employers abuse immigrant nurses, and that the system has loopholes and frauds. But please don't generalize about foreign nurses. Your problem should be with the process and not with the nurses. It's really very disheartening - a new grad could not do my job, and working in the US is good for both me and the US.

Fiona59 · Aug 6, 2009

Because you cannot be an RN in CA, NZ or other countries without being educated in those countries. Immigrant nurses MUST enter as LPN/LVN positions and then build their way up to RN positions.
Once the USA adopts universal health care then perhaps the same program will be implemented by the government as is done in every other country that has universal health care.
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WRONG!!!

In Canada, we have had many Australian and NZ prepared RNs migrate, have their credentials assessed and been granted RN permits.

If it was this easy for a LPN to become an RN the working LPNs in Canada would be doing the "bridge" and "working their way up".

One province was generous enought to grant LPN permits to a group of Phillipino BScNs to work. Their education was found to be the equivalent of a diploma prepared PN. To save face and not have to publicly declare their recruitment drive had been a farce, Capital Health went this route. The RNs recruited from Oz and NZ hit the floors running without the major adaption issues found with the others.

You really don't know what you are talking about.

beachbutterfly · Aug 6, 2009

you are soooooo right....if I ever hear from anyone's mouth complaining about nursing shortage I will scream my lungs out,I'm totally dissapointed with the job market and feel bad for all the new grads,including myself!

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Aug 6, 2009

This is the crux of the problem. The shortage increase is faster than the rate of graduation, it is logistically impossible for the US nursing schools to meet the demands as they are projected to rise more and more from the next 2-5 years and then in a near hyperbolic trend from 5-10 years.
Yes, that is true, but most hospitals have affiliated outpatient centers where LPNs can work and migrate within the same "company" (for lack of a better term).
Response:
That is what is happening now, RNs are working in outpatient - that is where the trend is. Why work as a LPN? Organizations do not license nurses.
Yes and no... up to $40K is a little inflated... while it is true that it can get that high most are far lower. Yes, they do have to pay out a bit more for securing the nurses however from their perspective they are getting a more secure "transaction" than in hiring a US nurse that can go anywhere. The foreign nurse must sign contracts and they face stiff penalties for breaking those contracts.
The "initial period" that the services must be rendered by the hospital is typically one month and they have negotiated rates with facilities to make the overall cost impact low.
Additionally, they work through staffing agencies or overseas employment firms to more or less side-step many of these issues.
Direct Hiring and Indirect hiring are two different issues and many hospitals choose indirect hiring because of the kinds of expenses you have outlined.
Response:
So if there are lay offs the foreign nurses stay and the Americans get dumped, sorry this is wrong.
You are generalizing and you are negating the fact that a nurse's credentials have already been evaluated. According to US Immigration law, in order to obtain an occupational visa the position and the applicant must match; meaning that if the position requires a BSN then the BSN must be at the appropriate level. This is what Visa Screen certification is for in conjunction with the evaluations done at the local state board of nursing. This is why foreign born and educated nurses will ALWAYS have to process evaluations as part of an endorsement from one state to another no matter how long they have been working in the USA.
Here's how I get 13%:
Total number of nurse graduates that pass the local board in Philippines: 48%
Total number of those nurses which go on to apply for licensure in the USA: 80%
Total number of those who sit for NCLEX that pass: 44%
Other countries are lower, Philippines has the highest passing average for NCLEX outside the USA.
Foreign nurses cannot have the certifications that you mention because those certifications must be done in the USA per each State Board's standards. There are training facilities that have attempted to provide those kinds of certified trainings in the past here in the Philippines but the problem is that they would have to be accredited by each state.
Currently there is only one training facility still functioning and while the courses are not recognized in the USA, they do well to educate nurses to US methods and standards of providing care.
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I don't see how that is possible based on the way visas are issued from the Embassy. They are tough in interviews and all the positions that my contacts in staffing firms and agencies have are for experienced nurses. One nice thing for Pinoy nurses is that some healthcare networks in the USA have begun to recognize the difference between volunteer positions here and in the USA and are permitting some to be counted as work experience (depending on the hospital and the nurse obviously) so that may be a part of it.
You have to understand that in the Philippines, a volunteer nurse is 100% responsible for his/her patient's care just as if he/she is in a paid staff position.
Again, according to my Immigration attourney friend, (just got off the phone to clarify this point) a visa will not be issued for a position that the applicant is not qualified for. The BSN degree must be at the same education level for the position that they are going to and the experience level must be the same.
Also, he shared with me that some of the US Sponsors have placed requirements on the nurses.. as in they will sponsor and work with them for immigration but that they must get clinical experience in the meantime.
Response:
Volunteer nursing does not count in the USA. Sorry. You do not have to have a BSN for immigration, you need the highest level of education for your country. This is only true for the Philippines. Other countries the nurse can have a diploma.
And using your stats....that is a horrible nursing education system. Perhaps the country needs to clean up it's own education before exporting ?
Because you cannot be an RN in CA, NZ or other countries without being educated in those countries. Immigrant nurses MUST enter as LPN/LVN positions and then build their way up to RN positions.
Once the USA adopts universal health care then perhaps the same program will be implemented by the government as is done in every other country that has universal health care.
1. Not all want to work overseas, some are happy to remain here
2. many of the qualified nurses are Filipinos working in hospitals in Dubai, Oman, KSA and other countries.
3. Since the employed nurses will be migrating to the other countries to take positions then the unemployed nurses will be able to move into place... it flows that way.
Response:
American should take care of their own.

Music in My Heart · Aug 6, 2009

The 20,000 per year is to alleviate the shortage that practically everyone involved with healthcare administration can see coming due to the advancing average age of the USRN and the combination of standard needs increases. Right now the recession has suppressed the shortage and is holding it off for another couple years.

Well, they've got a system that's churning out nurses by the thousands so they have little credibility if their claim is that they "can't find enough nurses" if they're not even utilizing the ones that are already here.

I totally agree with you on that. However as long as health care is a private industry then the companies which own hospitals can decide their own requirements for hiring staff positions. However as long as our economic infrastructure remains capitalist that cannot be enforced by the government and it must come from the hospitals themselves.

Sure. But then again, we're not talking about private-enterprise policy here, are we? No, we're talking about government policy -- legal statute.

Here's a thought: Don't ask for a change in statute to facilitate the mass importation of non-resident nurses -- use the free market to solve the "problem." There are significant domestic resources which remain untapped -- until they are being utilized effectively by private industry then there's no legitimate justification for the change in PUBLIC policy being staunchly advocated by PRIVATE industry.

I expect my government to look out for the current residents of the US. In a recession that followed years of a jobless recovery, changing statute to massively import workers in one of the few growth jobs is simply bad public policy.

Silverdragon102, BSN · Aug 6, 2009

Because you cannot be an RN in CA, NZ or other countries without being educated in those countries. Immigrant nurses MUST enter as LPN/LVN positions and then build their way up to RN positions.
Once the USA adopts universal health care then perhaps the same program will be implemented by the government as is done in every other country that has universal health care.

Sorry but in Canada if RN trained internationally as long as you meet the college requirements you can sit CRNE and work as a RN. Not sure where you got the idea that they have to come in as a LPN and work their way up. I know several RN's from the UK and Philippines that are posting in the International forum that have come to or going through the process now with no problems. Some do have to do an assessment before the college will give eligibility but a lot will depend on what is on their transcripts and what experience they have.

I am in Canada now and currently going through the NS college and because of my transcripts I have to do a couple of courses before I am allowed to sit CRNE and work as a RN and have had no mention of working as a LPN and sitting their exam.

As mentioned there was an incident where some Philippine nurses where evaluated to LPN but we have seen many more meet RN requirements

RuRnurse? · Aug 6, 2009

The shortage is real, the problem is that health care, like any other business, wants the cheapest labor force they can get. As long as they can get away with it, hospitals and other health care facilities will do their damndest to recruit those willing to work for less, even if it means 'out-sourcing' by looking overseas for their nurses.

Music in My Heart · Aug 6, 2009

The shortage is real, the problem is that health care, like any other business, wants the cheapest labor force they can get. As long as they can get away with it, hospitals and other health care facilities will do their damndest to recruit those willing to work for less, even if it means 'out-sourcing' by looking overseas for their nurses.

It's not even a simple matter of working for less. It's also the basic tenet of supply-and-demand... as the supply is increased through importation, the price (that is, wages, benefits, etc) goes down.

Music in My Heart · Aug 6, 2009

The shortage is real...

Is it?

I hear the mantra repeated over and over - stated as fact - but I haven't seen the data and the assumptions that underlie the proclamation.

What I see is the 5% vacancy rate statewide (I have no idea what it is nationwide) and that nearly half of new grads remain unemployed.

Perhaps there will be a shortage at some point... there certainly is not now.

For all the talk about 'when the recession' is over and 'green shoots', the truth is that nobody knows what's coming. Good public policy is to focus on solving the potential problem with available domestic resources. Millions upon millions of jobs have been lost to low-wage countries and through the externalization of costs. At some point, the madness needs to stop.

Mass importation of workers to fill a need that could be met with domestic resources (with sufficient investment and planning) is simply foolish.

Plagueis · Aug 6, 2009

In my state a licensed nurse can't work as a nursing assistant.

Really? May I ask what state is that? I guess it depends on what state on resides in. I know nurses who told me they worked as nursing assistants until they found a nursing position, instead of remaining unemployed. I'm curious, though: what if a LTC facility, for instance, needs a nursing assistant due to a call out, and a nurse takes the opening. Would that be illegal in that state? :confused:

Ginger's Mom, MSN, RN · Aug 6, 2009

Really? May I ask what state is that? I guess it depends on what state on resides in. I know nurses who told me they worked as nursing assistants until they found a nursing position, instead of remaining unemployed. I'm curious, though: what if a LTC facility, for instance, needs a nursing assistant due to a call out, and a nurse takes the opening. Would that be illegal in that state?

State of Mass, it is due to liability, I have had numerous student loose their aide job when they become RNs orLPNs.

BabyCatchr, ADN, ASN, RN · Aug 6, 2009

THIS IS THE SAME THING I JUST WENT THROUGH AS A TEACHER! Sorry for yelling There is NO teacher shortage - that is a myth. They are actually laying off teachers & closing schools. After 3 years of jobsearching, I finally found a job that paid $18,000 per year, required me to change my children's schools and bring them with me and pay for tuition ($22K per year minus tuition = $18K), and on top of that I had to pay $450 a month to my teacher certification school. I was laid off at the end of the year because my 13 yr old son did not pass the religious interview for high school and show that he held the same right wing evangelical beliefs as the school Very angering and also to hear they might import nurses from other countries and I'll go through more years of school just to have the same happen again???!!!?!? :angryfire