Leaving Your Job Due to Mandate

Horseshoe, BSN, RN · Aug 25, 2021

3 hours ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Yet you refuse to answer. If you have antibodies and have recovered from covid, do you need the vaccine? Yes or no?

What do you mean I refuse to answer? I haven't been asked that question and haven't had any discussions with anyone on this thread about whether or not people who have recovered from Covid need to take the vaccine. This thread is about how unvaccinated nurses feel about having to leave their jobs if they refuse vaccination. I just call out misinformation when I see it, and that one was absolutely absurd.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Aug 25, 2021

3 hours ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

WRONG! Natural immunity is a thing. The fact breakthrough cases exist is a thing. The point of a vaccine is to replicate what happens when you get infected without getting infected. To dismiss natural immunity as no longer valid is alarming.

NO ONE has said that natural immunity isn't a "thing." Of course it exists. However, it is only temporary and you never know where you are on the curve. The vaccine will provide more antibodies than natural immunity and they will last longer.

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Aug 25, 2021

3 minutes ago, subee said:

NO ONE has said that natural immunity isn't a "thing." Of course it exists. However, it is only temporary and you never know where you are on the curve. The vaccine will provide more antibodies than natural immunity and they will last longer.

Oh contraire good sir. Allow me to retort with a previous post. I was replying to somebody else about a similar discussion to this one but most of it is directly related to your above comment:

""I half disagree with you. The following study says two things to me. 1) disease induced immunity is effective at least 1 year after infection regardless (I repeat, REGARDLESS) of subsequent vaccination and subsequent vaccination increases the potency of natural immunity. 2) nobody under this study got covid one year post infection regardless of vaccination status.

From the study [brackets added by me for emphasis]: "The data suggest that immunity in convalescent [that includes unvaccinated, post infection individuals] individuals will be very long lasting and that convalescent individuals who receive available mRNA vaccines will produce antibodies and memory B cells that should be protective against circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants."

So while I agree with you vaccines do enhance the immune response from natural immunity, unvaccinated people were still covid free. Why might that be? Do we actually need that extra boost? That isn't clear to me at this time.""

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9

As you can see, natural immunity is clearly active long term. It's not surprising subsequent vaccination provides a "boost", but as I said, do we really need that boost? Jury is still out since the unvaccinated, post infected, still had robust immunity. How much immunity is enough? Do we need more than we have from infection? We don't know yet. We are still learning that answer.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 25, 2021

2 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

There is no valid reason to remain unvaccinated in the absence of true medical contraindication. Gambling with a vaccine preventable disease is not evidence of sound critical thinking or logic. The vaccines are safe and effective and all eligible adults should vaccinate ASAP, even if previously infected with covid.

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Aug 25, 2021

19 minutes ago, Horseshoe said:

What do you mean I refuse to answer? I haven't been asked that question and haven't had any discussions with anyone on this thread about whether or not people who have recovered from Covid need to take the vaccine. This thread is about how unvaccinated nurses feel about having to leave their jobs if they refuse vaccination. I just call out misinformation when I see it, and that one was absolutely absurd.

You quoted me and answered in a sarcastic way so I assumed you had read what my previous comment was referring to. Apparently not. It's not my fault you jumped in the middle dude.

Home Health Columnist / Guide · Aug 25, 2021

5 hours ago, salandit said:

Is there evidence of second doses being required despite issues with the first dose in these mandates? I would personally hope there are exceptions in these cases, because the point isn’t to cause harm to individuals and they’d be partially protected already. However, I think that uncomfortable side effects should be differentiated from actual patient harm, because I’m not sure that some individuals understand the difference.

Per CDC - don't get second shot.

Possible Side Effects After Getting a COVID-19 Vaccine

Quote

If you had a severe or immediate allergic reaction after getting the first dose of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine, you should not get a second dose of either of the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines. Learn about getting a different type of vaccine after an allergic reaction.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 25, 2021

2 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

You quoted me and answered in a sarcastic way so I assumed you had read what my previous comment was referring to. Apparently not. It's not my fault you jumped in the middle dude.

It's your fault that your post was confusing.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Aug 25, 2021

6 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Oh contraire good sir. Allow me to retort with a previous post. I was replying to somebody else about a similar discussion to this one but most of it is directly related to your above comment:

""I half disagree with you. The following study says two things to me. 1) disease induced immunity is effective at least 1 year after infection regardless (I repeat, REGARDLESS) of subsequent vaccination and subsequent vaccination increases the potency of natural immunity. 2) nobody under this study got covid one year post infection regardless of vaccination status.

From the study [brackets added by me for emphasis]: "The data suggest that immunity in convalescent [that includes unvaccinated, post infection individuals] individuals will be very long lasting and that convalescent individuals who receive available mRNA vaccines will produce antibodies and memory B cells that should be protective against circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants."

So while I agree with you vaccines do enhance the immune response from natural immunity, unvaccinated people were still covid free. Why might that be? Do we actually need that extra boost? That isn't clear to me at this time.""

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9

As you can see, natural immunity is clearly active long term. It's not surprising subsequent vaccination provides a "boost", but as I said, do we really need that boost? Jury is still out since the unvaccinated, post infected, still had robust immunity. How much immunity is enough? Do we need more than we have from infection? We don't know yet. We are still learning that answer.

That is good news from this article. I don't take anything as fact from a single article. I did notice that the average age was 47. I am much older and assume that my immunine system is not as robust as that of a 47 year old person. I saw no charts relating long-term immunity to age. Other studies disagree with this one and I'm going to take the path of cautiousness. I don't know why I would take any other.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Aug 25, 2021

5 hours ago, macawake said:

Questioning is fine. In fact it’s great. On the other hand, being fooled by disinformation and choosing to reject facts and scientific data is somewhat less likely to be viewed favorably and rewarded by Darwin.

Are you a nurse?!? This is just one of the most surreal paragraphs I’ve seen here, and the competition has been quite stiff this past year.

You appear to be proposing that we should give unverified and in the case of an online forum, anonymous anecdotes equal weight, or even more weight, than actual peer-reviewed research where we can review the study, data and method and apply our own knowledge about research methodology to interpret it. I’m not sure if I’m meant to laugh or cry.

…

I got vaccinated and now I can bench press twice my body weight and my hair looks healthier than ever before. It’s so shiny that my coworkers now use it as a mirror.

I wonder how people would line up if the vaccine caused one to lose 10 pounds:)

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Aug 25, 2021

1 minute ago, toomuchbaloney said:

There is no valid reason to remain unvaccinated in the absence of true medical contraindication. Gambling with a vaccine preventable disease is not evidence of sound critical thinking or logic. The vaccines are safe and effective and all eligible adults should vaccinate ASAP, even if previously infected with covid.

Wrong. That is for the individual to decide. Nobody should be compelled to take any medicine. It's called "informed consent". If you are a nurse you should be familiar with this bedrock foundation of medical ethics. The consent part of that is not optional. If a patient says "don't touch me" and he's of sound mind, he has every right to refuse anything for any reason he chooses even if you don't agree with it. Even if it's for his own good. Period. Your opinion about his opinion is irrelevant. The vaccines are safe and effective as far as we know given this very short time period and only in terms of whole populations. But not for everyone. Many hundreds have had break through infections. That's not effective for THOSE people. Don't they matter? I've seen lots of personal testimonies about people with severe reactions and life altering results they claim came from the vaccine (ie the symptoms emerged soon after getting the vaccine). I've seen stories of celebrities quickly dying soon after getting the vaccine. Was it safe for them? Don't they matter? .5 % of 100,000,000 is 500,000. That's a small percentage but a very big number. There's no way to be CERTAIN those stories were directly caused by the vaccine. So how can we actually know who has bad effects? Maybe the number is higher? we don't know. These people are being ignored. What if you got a lupus like illness that was permanent a week after getting the vaccine? And then everyone told you to shut up, it wasn't the "safe and effective vaccine?" These people matter too dude. Have some compassion for them too.

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Aug 25, 2021

13 minutes ago, subee said:

That is good news from this article. I don't take anything as fact from a single article. I did notice that the average age was 47. I am much older and assume that my immunine system is not as robust as that of a 47 year old person. I saw no charts relating long-term immunity to age. Other studies disagree with this one and I'm going to take the path of cautiousness. I don't know why I would take any other.

I agree. It was a pretty small study so it's hard to say if these results can extrapolate. But it's good to know convalescent people are still protected to a pretty good degree with or without the vaccine. Being that you're in the high risk category I completely agree with your chosen path.

On a personal note, If they had a traditional vaccine I'd take it today. I'm hoping Novavax comes out soon if I ever get hit with a mandate. Most of Florida is safe from that for now.

toomuchbaloney · Aug 25, 2021

19 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Wrong. That is for the individual to decide. Nobody should be compelled to take any medicine. It's called "informed consent". If you are a nurse you should be familiar with this bedrock foundation of medical ethics. The consent part of that is not optional. If a patient says "don't touch me" and he's of sound mind, he has every right to refuse anything for any reason he chooses even if you don't agree with it. Even if it's for his own good. Period.

That bit of hysteria has exactly zero relationship to anything I've said or maintained about covid vaccination. It's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

19 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

The vaccines are safe and effective as far as we know given this very short time period and only in terms of whole populations. But not for everyone. Many hundreds have had break through infections. That's not effective for THOSE people. Don't they matter?

Your ignorance about the safety and efficacy of these vaccines is revealed in this quoted bunch of words. It's almost embarrassing that you apparently don't know that the vaccines are extremely effective at preventing serious illness, hospitalization or death from the pandemic virus. Why don't you know that? Do you think that is likely that the vaccinated but sick people might be more seriously ill if they weren't vaccinated? Does that matter?

19 minutes ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

I've seen stories of celebrities quickly dying soon after getting the vaccine. Was it safe for them? Don't they matter? .5 % of 100,000,000 is 500,000. That's a small percentage but a very big number. There's no way to be CERTAIN those stories were directly caused by the vaccine. So how can we actually know who has bad effects? Maybe the number is higher? we don't know. These people are being ignored. What if you got a lupus like illness that was permanent a week after getting the vaccine? And then everyone told you to shut up, it wasn't the "safe and effective vaccine?" These people matter too dude. Have some compassion for them too.

What does that mean? Why are you looking for reasons to fear vaccinating? Why are you imagining horrible outcomes when there is no evidence of some issue that would predict future catastrophe?