Kern County ER Docs C-19

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Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
6 hours ago, FullGlass said:

Above is incorrect. The doctors were very clear they were only making comments based on their data for the Bakersfield area. They were also very clear when they extrapolated. Every single sample testing conducted so far, in different parts of the country, has indicated the prevalence of COVID to be far higher than expected. This means the death rate is far lower than originally projected. The current consensus seems to be 0.5 to 0.1 range.

Pan is wrong. We need to consider reopening by specific city and region. That's what the doctors in the video said, too. We can't treat Bakersfield like NYC.

In fact, 6 Calif counties have appealed to Gov Newsom to reopen their counties because they have not had a significant issue with COVID.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/27/rural-california-counties-want-to-end-coronavirus-lockdown/

Since when is science a religion? Real science is always open to discussion, debate, and new findings. Science is never "settled." COVID is very new, so we don't know very much at all. More and more doctors are now coming forward and expressing doubts about whether this lockdown approach was correct or should continue.

Of course science is not a religion. That is why the scientific method requires the researcher to critically question the results of an experiment. The scientist should ask whether something was forgotten, whether more data needs to be collected, and whether any mistakes were made.

The Scientific Method is a process. The "Nursing Process" utilizes the Scientific Method.

https://www.nursingprocess.org/Nursing-Process-Steps.html

The Kern County physicians stated opinions on immunology that could not have been proved with their test results.

They only used the patients who came to one of their urgent care centers and were tested for the coronavirus. Did they consider the people in the county who were tested elsewhere? Did they consider that these people were seeking a test and/or were unwell?

Dr. Erickson stated, "Sheltering in place decreases your immune system. And then as we all come out of shelter in place with a lower immune system and start trading viruses, bacteria — what do you think is going to happen? Disease is going to spike," Where is their research for this statement? https://www.theblaze.com/news/doctor-dan-erickson-coronavirus-reopen

Dr. Dan Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi argue that achieving “herd immunity” appears to be a better strategy to combat COVID-19 without decimating the economy. Dr. Erickson said Sweden’s approach relies on “herd immunity,” which can be achieved when enough people get the virus and recover from it. Or through vaccination. Did they study or discover whether and how long a person recovered from COVID-19 is immune? If so where is their research? https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/04/28/viral-herd-immunity-strategy-video-changes-the-game-doctors-explain-more-to-laura-ingraham-914031

The doctors said, "If you have no symptoms you should be able to return to work. Are you an asymptomatic viral spreader? Maybe, but we can’t test all of humanity." AND,

"If you’re healthy and you don’t have significant comorbidities and you know you’re not immunodeficient and you’re not elderly you should be able to go out without any gloves and without a mask. If you are those things you should either shelter in place or wear a mask and gloves. I don’t think everybody needs to wear the masks and gloves because it reduces your bacterial flora… and your bacterial flora and your viruses your friends that protect you from other diseases [if they] end up going away and now you’re more likely to get opportunistic infections infections that are hoping you don’t have your good bugs fighting for you." Do these physicians know that wearing a cloth or surgical mask does NOT protect the wearer? Do they know it does lower the chances of the wearer, who may be asymptomatic and yet carry COVID-19, spreading it to others? https://www.aier.org/article/open-up-society-now-say-Dr-dan-erickson-and-Dr-artin-massihi/

Do you believe everyone without symptoms should return to work immediately?

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
21 hours ago, herring_RN said:

Of course science is not a religion. That is why the scientific method requires the researcher to critically question the results of an experiment. The scientist should ask whether something was forgotten, whether more data needs to be collected, and whether any mistakes were made.

*** Yes, we need to constantly re-evaluate and consider other points of view. That is what I said.

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The Scientific Method is a process. The "Nursing Process" utilizes the Scientific Method.

https://www.nursingprocess.org/Nursing-Process-Steps.html

*** I fail to see how the Nursing Process is relevant to my comments.

Quote

The Kern County physicians stated opinions on immunology that could not have been proved with their test results.

*** NO ONE knows much about COVID.

Quote

They only used the patients who came to one of their urgent care centers and were tested for the coronavirus. Did they consider the people in the county who were tested elsewhere? Did they consider that these people were seeking a test and/or were unwell?

*** They clearly stated their opinion was based on what they were seeing. You are also making assumptions that may or may not be true. They did 40% of the testing in the area. That is a very large fraction. We don't know if the people tested were or were not respresentative, true, but you can't automatically assume they were not. A lot of people want testing because they are freaked out. Yes, some are sick, but that doesn't mean they have COVID.

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Dr. Erickson stated, "Sheltering in place decreases your immune system. And then as we all come out of shelter in place with a lower immune system and start trading viruses, bacteria — what do you think is going to happen? Disease is going to spike," Where is their research for this statement? https://www.theblaze.com/news/doctor-dan-erickson-coronavirus-reopen

*** This is just basic knowledge. 1. Shelter in place was to flatten the curve, not eliminate all deaths and sickness. 2. Therefore, it is just logical that unless we have a vaccine or cure, once shelter in place stops, the number of cases will go up.

Quote

Dr. Dan Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi argue that achieving “herd immunity” appears to be a better strategy to combat COVID-19 without decimating the economy. Dr. Erickson said Sweden’s approach relies on “herd immunity,” which can be achieved when enough people get the virus and recover from it. Or through vaccination. Did they study or discover whether and how long a person recovered from COVID-19 is immune? If so where is their research? https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/04/28/viral-herd-immunity-strategy-video-changes-the-game-doctors-explain-more-to-laura-ingraham-914031

*** they are giving their opinion, and they are not the only doctors that have this opinion. The purpose of the lockdown is to flatten the curve, not elimiate all illness and death forever. The point of flattening the curve is to pevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed. That has now been accomplished. We may NEVER have a vaccine and it could be a year or more before there is a cure or effective treatments. We can't stay locked down for that long without major economic catastrophe and a whole host of other medical problems.

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The doctors said, "If you have no symptoms you should be able to return to work. Are you an asymptomatic viral spreader? Maybe, but we can’t test all of humanity." AND,

"If you’re healthy and you don’t have significant comorbidities and you know you’re not immunodeficient and you’re not elderly you should be able to go out without any gloves and without a mask. If you are those things you should either shelter in place or wear a mask and gloves. I don’t think everybody needs to wear the masks and gloves because it reduces your bacterial flora… and your bacterial flora and your viruses your friends that protect you from other diseases [if they] end up going away and now you’re more likely to get opportunistic infections infections that are hoping you don’t have your good bugs fighting for you." Do these physicians know that wearing a cloth or surgical mask does NOT protect the wearer? Do they know it does lower the chances of the wearer, who may be asymptomatic and yet carry COVID-19, spreading it to others? https://www.aier.org/article/open-up-society-now-say-Dr-dan-erickson-and-Dr-artin-massihi/

Do you believe everyone without symptoms should return to work immediately?

*** Yes, I do. We can still constinue to take precautions, like masks, distancing, and so forth. People who are in high risk groups can continue to self-isolate.

90% of more of people who have been hospitalized, died, etc, had at least one underlying comorbidity.

We have to perform cost-benefit analysis when making these decisions. There is always a risk. We don't eliminate cars because a lot of people die in MVAs. We don't eliminate medicines because some people take too much and OD and die.

As the doctors said, we quarantine the sick, not the healthy!

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Specializes in Critical care, tele, Medical-Surgical.
36 minutes ago, FullGlass said:

*** they are giving their opinion, and they are not the only doctors that have this opinion. The purpose of the lockdown is to flatten the curve, not elimiate all illness and death forever. The point of flattening the curve is to pevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed. That has now been accomplished. We may NEVER have a vaccine and it could be a year or more before there is a cure or effective treatments. We can't stay locked down for that long without major economic catastrophe and a whole host of other medical problems.

Thank you for your opinion and looking at my opinion.

If you want I would like a favor. Part of your answer is inside the quote. That may confuse people who read it. Some may think your answer is part of my post. I will be thankful if you click "edit" and cut your opinion and paste it outside the quote.

If not, OK. I appreciate reading your opinion.

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27 minutes ago, FullGlass said:

As the doctors said, we quarantine the sick, not the healthy!

That is a great idea.
The only people who need to quarantine are those who are contagious, and everybody else will be fine.

Any thoughts on how we figure out who is contagious?

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
1 hour ago, hherrn said:

That is a great idea.
The only people who need to quarantine are those who are contagious, and everybody else will be fine.

Any thoughts on how we figure out who is contagious?

My point, and the point of the Bakersfield doctors, is that we "quarantine" the sick. We need to start lifting this unprecendented lockdown of the entire population.

We do have a pretty good handle now on who is at highest risk for serious illness and death. Those folks should continue to self-isolate and take strict precautions.

For people without comorbidities, the odds of death are very low. The rest of us need to get back to work. Yes, we should follow reasonable precautions like social distancing and good hygiene.

Honestly, I don't care if someone wants to cower in fear inside their homes and self-isolate for the rest of their life. They can make up some kind of full-body condom if they have to go out in public, too.

I'm also sick of ridiculous sanctions like people not being allowed to take a hike in a remote area or people being told they can't take walks in a public park, even if they observe social distancing. Gov Newsom of California had a hissy fit because people went to the beach last week during a heat wave, EVEN THOUGH LIFEGUARDS SAID PEOPLE OBSERVED SOCIAL DISTANCING. This is absurd. And what on earth do authorities plan to do if 50,000 people show up at beaches? There is no way they can secure California's entire coast line and even if they could, are they going to arrest 100,000 people? Where would they put them? They've let DANGEROUS criminals out of prison due to COVID - are we going to put people in prison now for going to the beach?! I'm sick of this crap.

At a certain point, the costs, medical, psychological, and financial, along with the infringement of liberties, of an extended lockdown will outweigh the benefits. I believe we have reached this point, at least in California, where I live.

I'm also sick of the censorship emerging. We don't know much about COVID, yet individuals who dare to question the current conventions are having posts removed from social media, can be condemned by professional associations, etc. This is crap and goes against the First Amendment It reminds me of how Galileo was treated back in medieval times for daring to say the earth orbits the sun. There is NO settled science on COVID.

And we don't make public policy decisions just based on the medical perspective. There are very important economic, social, and legal issues at stake here.

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6 hours ago, FullGlass said:

My point, and the point of the Bakersfield doctors, is that we "quarantine" the sick. We need to start lifting this unprecendented lockdown of the entire population.

We do have a pretty good handle now on who is at highest risk for serious illness and death. Those folks should continue to self-isolate and take strict precautions.

For people without comorbidities, the odds of death are very low. The rest of us need to get back to work. Yes, we should follow reasonable precautions like social distancing and good hygiene.

Honestly, I don't care if someone wants to cower in fear inside their homes and self-isolate for the rest of their life. They can make up some kind of full-body condom if they have to go out in public, too.

I'm also sick of ridiculous sanctions like people not being allowed to take a hike in a remote area or people being told they can't take walks in a public park, even if they observe social distancing. Gov Newsom of California had a hissy fit because people went to the beach last week during a heat wave, EVEN THOUGH LIFEGUARDS SAID PEOPLE OBSERVED SOCIAL DISTANCING. This is absurd. And what on earth do authorities plan to do if 50,000 people show up at beaches? There is no way they can secure California's entire coast line and even if they could, are they going to arrest 100,000 people? Where would they put them? They've let DANGEROUS criminals out of prison due to COVID - are we going to put people in prison now for going to the beach?! I'm sick of this crap.

At a certain point, the costs, medical, psychological, and financial, along with the infringement of liberties, of an extended lockdown will outweigh the benefits. I believe we have reached this point, at least in California, where I live.

I'm also sick of the censorship emerging. We don't know much about COVID, yet individuals who dare to question the current conventions are having posts removed from social media, can be condemned by professional associations, etc. This is crap and goes against the First Amendment It reminds me of how Galileo was treated back in medieval times for daring to say the earth orbits the sun. There is NO settled science on COVID.

And we don't make public policy decisions just based on the medical perspective. There are very important economic, social, and legal issues at stake here.

While you have some really valid points, this approach is polarizing, and you are shooting yourself in the foot. So to speak.

We regularly make cost benefit analysts on safety vs quality of life and economics. Individual choice vs government regulation, etc. This is why we allow 16 year olds to drive, don't ban cigarettes, etc.

But, when guys like the Bakersfield docs put out something like they did, and it is used to support the argument, that argument loses ground. Of course it was "condemned by professional associations". It did not meet the level expected in that profession.

Using terms like "cowering in fear" is a good way to offend people, but not a great way to open their minds. What a lot of folks are doing is hard for them, and many are doing it more for the benefit of others. I expect to get this, but observe strict precautions to protect others. Calling me a coward could get my hackles up. It didn't- I know you are upset and probably didn't mean it personally.

And, pulling that stuff off Youtube is unrelated to the First Amendment. The First Amendment has to do with government restriction. The government has to allow me to have a cross burning ceremony complete with white robes and pointy hats. That does not mean facebook has to allow me to post it. These are private entities.

"At a certain point, the costs, medical, psychological, and financial, along with the infringement of liberties, of an extended lockdown will outweigh the benefits. I believe we have reached this point, at least in California, where I live"

That is the strong argument. I encourage all to make a better case by sticking to sound science (even though this is new), and non-inflammatory claims.

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7 hours ago, FullGlass said:

My point, and the point of the Bakersfield doctors, is that we "quarantine" the sick.

How do we quarantine the sick when we have asymptomatic sick people? I mean, what an asinine statement those two made.

Look, I'm all for opening things up in a safe manner, fortunately my state starts today, and I completely understand the point of "flattening the curve" (much to the chagrin of my family and friends when I explained it to them) but you can't have medical professionals present themselves to the public as experts while at the same time clearly manipulating numbers (incorrectly) to a freaked-out and largely unwitting public to support their viewpoint. Even many of us fell victim to their statistics at first until we really started listening to what they were saying and it became evident that something was amiss.

And as Heron pointed out since when did the First Amendment apply to private parties or enterprises? If Youtube wanted to take the video down that was fully within their right to do so and given the backlash these guys are getting from people who specialize in the things they pretended to ("we took classes") I think it was the right thing to do.

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Look at it this way-

There is a guy who owns a food delivery service that is thriving since restrictions are in place. The more restricted, the more he makes. Though he is an entrepreneur, he has a degree in economics. He has a degree in Agricultural and Natural Resource Economics. He is an economist.

If I posted his video explaining how loosening restrictions would cause our economy tank and there would be deaths in the millions, many would question his credentials. And if true leaders in his field had a consensus that his data and logic was flawed, I am sure opponents would point it out.

He may be right. There does need to be a balance between financial and physical well being. But, if I was trying to effect change, using him as an example I would lose credibility.

In addition to those with well informed concern for the economy, there are some reckless idiots out protesting. If I refer to the those concerned with the economy as reckless idiots, I would lose credibility.

My state is loosening up. I expect this to cause a rise in cases, and a rise in deaths. I support this. We can't afford to try to stamp this disease out, but we can keep it a manageable level as we work on vaccines, cures, etc. As a private citizen, I can say that I support a policy I believe will kill more people, particularly frail and elderly. Unfortunately, politicians cannot publicly verbalize that there is an acceptable casualty rate. Despite the fact that this is the case with all public health issues, it would be political suicide to acknowledge it publicly.

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On 4/28/2020 at 8:16 AM, Hoosier_RN said:

Last night, I heard on the news that this video was removed because it goes against the WHO and CDC. I can't find it using a general search today. This is censorship at its finest, and raises more red flags than the video itself did!

ETA- I just did another search. There are snippets of video, but the original, full length is buried way down the list. I wish I could remember which channel, CNN or MSNBC reported this. I was flipping through and he told me to turn that garbage off (he's a big FOX fan), only reason I know it had to be one of those 2

It's still available on the news page's facebook, as the link in the top of the thread shows.

The show was on Fox -- Tucker Carlson. Someone shared out a link.

I can't find it on KGET's Youtube channel, but none of the clips there are over 30 minutes (those getting close are audios of their news broadcasts).

It's possible it wasn't an authorized copy of the video, not on KGET's page, and therefore the reason it was taken down was copyright infringement. Then again, I never searched for it on the Youtube.

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Seriously, you guys need to check out the link I posted earlier. It has a ton of really good information provided by an actual epidemiologist who is doing his best to be transparent. It certainly helped me gain a better understanding of all of those statistics being touted on social media and in the mainstream news. How to properly calculate and apply them. What we might expect to see in the future. It's fascinating.

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Specializes in Emergency.
17 hours ago, Wuzzie said:

http://blog.deonandan.com/wordpress/2020/04/covid19-lets-talk-about-the-bakersfield-duo.html?fbclid=IwAR26Vp6LQ_Er8sTG-vrYeyCCPcruIKd-9BkKbNM_7VbnXkAFVIXxDSGv-Vs

Thoughts?

Very well written. A clear & concise repudiation of the kern docs faulty logic. Plus he has 2 simpsons references which is always a bonus.

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