Justifying the cost of an Ivy League Nursing Education

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How do you guys justify the cost for a program like Yale, Penn or Columbia? Like why would you pick one of those over a smaller, wayyyy cheaper school? Just wondering your thoughts!

Specializes in oncology.

"If they don’t like bread lines, let them eat cake!" XXXX tells jobless Americans to just “find something new” to earn a living. MANY have no idea what most people’s lives are like.

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Specializes in oncology.
1 hour ago, FullGlass said:

I have seen many posts on this site from students at not-so-great nursing schools who are terrified of being kicked out for failing a class, etc.  

Yes, this is so true because of SOCIAL ISSUES. No partner with baby crying the whole night? and then the mother has to take a test in the morning?, Have to work 40 hours per week to keep health insurance to pay rent? You betcha..they are terrified. Our scholarships, at the most, amount to tuition...no stipend. Nothing that supports the 'costs of living' like Yale. 

Many of our students have children they are supporting...the most are female students. Many do not get any child support. But Many go on to make great social improvements. This note I got from a graduate who is now married with a second child is my favorite of all time:

Quote

Fewer than 2% of teen moms finish college or university by age 30. I am 25 and today I turned in my last assignment for my BSN (bachelor degree in nursing) and I am so freaking proud of myself. I have cried happy tears more than once today. I showed myself and all those who doubted me that I can do hard things.

There were SO MANY obstacles but the time was going to pass anyway. So I chose to just do the damn thing and get it done.

 

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Specializes in CEN, Firefighter/Paramedic.
1 hour ago, FullGlass said:

I have seen many posts on this site from students at not-so-great nursing schools who are terrified of being kicked out for failing a class, etc. 

Certainly there are ultimate pass/fail metrics for these programs, right?  

I checked Yale's nursing student handbook and came up empty.  

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Specializes in oncology.
2 hours ago, FullGlass said:

It's like the difference between shopping at Wal Mart or Neiman Marcus/Nordstroms

I just gotta add here, I worked at Marshall Field and Company in Chicago during the summers in the early 1970s.. Was great service really expected over another less prestigious store but prices were so much higher. There was NO tolerance for poor work effort, coming in to late because the baby was crying the whole night before. punctuality was everything.  I had to wear my hair up, no sleeveless dresses, no red shoes(?) Frankly my hourly pay wasn't any better than Montgomery Wards (which I took a job at) but I waited on a couple of celebrities (who would never be caught dead at Wards) and rode a train each day from my home 30 minutes each. When II went to Wards the service expected WAS THE SAME.

I grew up in Chicago and working at M.F. & Co seemed to be a great job. We always went there several times a year to but our Winter and Easter (Spring coats). We went up to the expensive floors to see the styles and then bought in the bargain basement. After college I would always ask for the Marshall Field label to be sewed at the inner neckline of my coat I bought . When someone took my coat I though it would be impressive. M.F, & Co, is gone and I still have the labels I cut out of the coats. It doesn't mean anything to anyone else but me....and I gotta wonder did it mean anything to anyone but me?

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Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
1 hour ago, londonflo said:

I just gotta add here, I worked at Marshall Field and Company in Chicago during the summers in the early 1970s.. Was great service really expected over another less prestigious store but prices were so much higher. There was NO tolerance for poor work effort, coming in to late because the baby was crying the whole night before. punctuality was everything.  I had to wear my hair up, no sleeveless dresses, no red shoes(?) Frankly my hourly pay wasn't any better than Montgomery Wards (which I took a job at) but I waited on a couple of celebrities (who would never be caught dead at Wards) and rode a train each day from my home 30 minutes each. When II went to Wards the service expected WAS THE SAME.

I grew up in Chicago and working at M.F. & Co seemed to be a great job. We always went there several times a year to but our Winter and Easter (Spring coats). We went up to the expensive floors to see the styles and then bought in the bargain basement. After college I would always ask for the Marshall Field label to be sewed at the inner neckline of my coat I bought . When someone took my coat I though it would be impressive. M.F, & Co, is gone and I still have the labels I cut out of the coats. It doesn't mean anything to anyone else but me....and I gotta wonder did it mean anything to anyone but me?

Yes!!  I remember MF well and loved it.  It was so impressive right down to the architecture.   To me, it's a loss not to be able to touch and feel the clothes, but as we slip into the 3rd world economy I understand that it isn't sustainable. I hope the city hasn't destroyed the building.

  

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Specializes in oncology.
14 minutes ago, subee said:

It was so impressive right down to the architecture. 

It's now a Macy's and, well, looks and is a Macy's.

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
On 12/23/2021 at 10:56 AM, londonflo said:

I appreciate your comment but you don't know even the half of the social problems (NOT Psych - SOCIAL)  we see in a CC program. We have food banks, I work with some local programs that give students bus fare tokens to get to school, and their are many instances of domestic violence  where the abuser takes away the student's telephone so they cannot call their absence from a beating that prevents them from attending school. 

Just taking a lot of CC courses does not clue you in to the horrible circumstances students experience. Looking at a surface level of a school you attended for a few classes -  does NOT give you ANY insight as to what lies under the surface. Don't you think these students want to blend into the whole student population? Don't you think they try to do that? Did anyone come up to you and say I don't have any food, gas money? I don't have any one to babysit on my clinical days, etc.?

Yes we have these horrible events too. These are ever-present in this world, I am afraid. But we don't even have a student health service. 

Social problems of domestic violence, food insecurity, lack of family's support in baby sitting services etc. are inherent in a population that has limited financial resources, limited guidance from any parent (if they)  went to college. May be it would be best to stay in your Yale lane even if includes a limited CC experience. BTW I also went to a big name school, had classmates with underlying stress/psych problems but never realized the DEPTH of the STRUGGLES of someone trying to improve their social circumstances via a CC education until I worked there.  WE ARE NOT ALL ALIKE! Have you thought about making a donation to your CC to insure the student body seems fine, fed and with no financial insecurities? Because frankly you really don't know anything about CC education with a few classes.

From your comments about the psychosocial services at Yale, I have lost a lot of respect for them. I am glad I make my contributions to my local community college and starting a scholarship there. 

You seem very angry and I don't know why.  All I am saying is that don't assume students going to big-name schools all come from wonderful privileged backgrounds.  That is not true of all of them.

The elite schools work very hard to ensure diversity and admit many students from different backgrounds.  Many of these students have the problems you touched on.  Yes, there are students at elite schools that come from the ghetto, that have already had babies, and so forth.  Personally, I suffered from horrible PTSD (which I didn't realize at the time) from horrible physical and mental abuse, as well as financial abuse, by my mother.  My parents cut me off financially while I was at Yale, I had to leave, and was literally homeless!  I went to a middle school and high school in the "hood."  I come from a mixed race family. Our family started out downright poor and we all worked hard to achieve the American dream.

You taught these students.  Well, I LIVED it, personally!  So do not patronize me.

What I was trying to say, and evidently did not say this clearly, is that I want students from underprivileged background, who are bright, to consider applying to some elite schools.  Many of them simply do not believe they could get in or afford to go to a leading nursing school.  They need to know that yes, they could get into Johns Hopkins School of Nursing and it might even be cheaper than going to community college!

Dr. Ben Carson, former Surgeon General, grew up extremely poor.  His mother worked as a cleaning woman.  He was able to attend Yale, then Univ of Mich Medical School, then did his internship and residency at Johns Hopkins.  He was a distinguished neurosurgeon, one of the most difficult specialties.  Young people from disadvantaged backgrounds need to know that this type of upward trajectory IS possible.

I have repeatedly stated that the community colleges do an excellent job.  However, an ADN alone is NOT ENOUGH for true nursing career advancement!  ADN graduates are best served by then completing an RN to BSN bridge.  If they wish to become an NP, then they will have to go to grad school!  I don't want talented young people going to crappy schools out of fear that they won't be able to get into, or afford, a first-rate education.

On 12/23/2021 at 11:03 AM, londonflo said:

"If they don’t like bread lines, let them eat cake!" XXXX tells jobless Americans to just “find something new” to earn a living. MANY have no idea what most people’s lives are like.

How on earth does this relate to this discussion thread?

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
On 12/23/2021 at 12:00 PM, londonflo said:

Yes, this is so true because of SOCIAL ISSUES. No partner with baby crying the whole night?

I was not discussing SOCIAL issues.  I was discussing schools that do not provide good support to their students.  At many nursing schools, if a student flunks one class they are simply kicked out of the program.  The end.  

Why do you assume no one going to a good nursing school has these problems?  Many nursing students at Hopkins also have families!  They also have to deal with crying babies, disgruntled partners, financial stressors, etc.  Some students squeezed 5 people into an apartment designed for 2 people!  

At better schools with good student support, such students are helped with tutoring, etc.  They may need to take a year off, but can then return to complete the program!  Anyone who has been reading this forum has seen all the anecdotes from students who are not supported in this way by crappy schools.  

In addition, student complaints are taken seriously by good schools.  I read so many anecdotes on here of students who really have been screwed over by instructors and so forth, and then have to drop out of school.  That does not happen at the better schools!

I do not understand why some people on this forum are so against good schools!  If a student could go to crappy for-profit Acme nursing school and spend $100K for a poor education and end up with a boatload of debt, versus going to Johns Hopkins on an almost-full ride scholarship and end up with little to no debt, why on earth would anyone go to Acme?  Many young people do not understand that they could, indeed, to to a great school for a reasonable cost!  I don't want talented young people to be discouraged from even applying to these schools.

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
On 12/23/2021 at 12:04 PM, FiremedicMike said:

Certainly there are ultimate pass/fail metrics for these programs, right?  

I checked Yale's nursing student handbook and came up empty.  

I do not know why everyone latched on to Yale.  I did my initial undergrad at Yale, majoring in East Asian Studies.  After a successful business career, I then attended Johns Hopkins School of Nursing.

One of my ABSN cohort members really struggled his first year in the program.  He clearly knew the material, but had horrible panic attacks during tests and kept failing or getting Ds on tests.  He also had a wonderful caring personality and everyone could see he would be a great nurse.  (BTW - he also came from a horrible background and was badly traumatized when younger).  The school did everything they could to help him and support him.  It was finally decided he needed to take a year off.  He did, and then came back, did very well, and graduated!

As for me, I did not have a smooth sail through Hopkins.  During the MSN NP Program, I became deeply depressed and almost failed one semester (I normally had excellent grades).  One of my professors and my academic advisor reached out to me and were very kind and understanding.  They got me the help I needed and provided me with some make-up opportunities.  Thanks to them, I was able to complete the program and graduate with my cohort.  

I can provider many other examples of how Hopkins supported its students.  I have found most top-tier schools to do the same.

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
On 12/23/2021 at 10:56 AM, londonflo said:

instances of domestic violence  where the abuser takes away the student's telephone so they cannot call their absence from a beating that prevents them from attending school. 

But we don't even have a student health service. 

 May be it would be best to stay in your Yale lane even if includes a limited CC experience. BTW I also went to a big name school, had classmates with underlying stress/psych problems but never realized the DEPTH of the STRUGGLES of someone trying to improve their social circumstances via a CC education until I worked there.  WE ARE NOT ALL ALIKE! Have you thought about making a donation to your CC to insure the student body seems fine, fed and with no financial insecurities?

How dare you patronize me?  You don't know anything about me.  I have been repeatedly attacked on this forum in general, so let me tell you something:

I am from a family of intergenerational trauma.  My mother was Korean, fled from North Korea during the Korean War, and lost almost her entire family.  She suffered other horrible traumas - extreme poverty, rape, etc.  My father's family almost starved during the Great Depression to the point where my father's growth was severely stunted.  My half-brother has a different father, and he is half Hawaiian Chinese and black.  I am a lot older than most people on this forum and grew up when there was a lot of prejudice against Asians in this country; both my brother and I were horribly bullied in school due to our race.  My mother beat the crap out of me and my brother, to the point where I could hardly walk, constantly.  I can't remember a time as a teen when I didn't have bruises on my body.  Not only that, my mother constantly told me I sucked, was worthless, etc.  I was always ambitious and worked - but my mom would take all the money I earned, leaving me with nothing!  Yet she demanded I buy her gifts constantly, so I saved my school lunch money, going most days w/o lunch, so I could do so to avoid another beating.  There was just so much violence.  My mother literally blinded my father in one eye!  Enough for you?

My high school was so bad we had armed police on campus!  When we went to interschool competitions, kids from other schools were afraid of us!  

During my sophomore year at Yale, my mother cut me off financially.  I was completely broke.  Yale let me finish the year, then told me I would have to take a year off and come back.  This is because I was admitted as a financial dependent and I needed one year to become officially financially independent and they would readmit me with concomitant financial aid.  Well, I was already a year younger than my classmates, and at the age of 18, this was just too much for me to cope with on top of my family trauma.  My brother sent me enough money to fly back to California, but I was homeless.  My mother threw all my belongings on to the front lawn.  Fortunately, a friend took me in.  I worked 2 jobs and saved enough to get a room in a house.  I ended up getting married at age 21, and had 2 stepchildren right off the bat.  At this point, I just gave up on going back to Yale.  

I worked 2 jobs during most of my 20s and also went to CC and then SDSU to finish up my BA.  At that time, even women with a college education often started out as secretaries, which I did.  Fast forward, by the age of 40 I was a corporate VP.

At age 53, I started nursing school at Hopkins.  My mother had passed away, and of all things, my father then began sexually molesting me!  This is why I fell into a deep depression and attempted suicide during my NP Program.  After I started working as an NP, my father remarried and then tried to rob me of my inheritance!

What got me through all these challenges?  KNOWING A BETTER FUTURE IS POSSIBLE.  I didn't sit around giving myself a pity party, focusing on all my disadvantages.  I "kept my eyes on the prize."  

I have spent a LOT of time in CC.  I have also helped other students with SOCIAL ISSUES.  And yes, I did make a contribution to a CC that is very poor and helped me a lot.  

I don't know what you mean by no health service at CC.  In California, the CCs have student health services.  I even received an NP job offer from one!

I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN CC.  I will say it yet again.  I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN CC.  They do great work.  But CC is NOT the only possibility for disadvantaged students.

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Specializes in Psychiatric and Mental Health NP (PMHNP).
On 12/23/2021 at 12:17 PM, londonflo said:

I just gotta add here, I worked at Marshall Field and Company in Chicago during the summers in the early 1970s.. Was great service really expected over another less prestigious store but prices were so much higher. There was NO tolerance for poor work effort, coming in to late because the baby was crying the whole night before. punctuality was everything.  I had to wear my hair up, no sleeveless dresses, no red shoes(?) Frankly my hourly pay wasn't any better than Montgomery Wards (which I took a job at) but I waited on a couple of celebrities (who would never be caught dead at Wards) and rode a train each day from my home 30 minutes each. When II went to Wards the service expected WAS THE SAME.

I grew up in Chicago and working at M.F. & Co seemed to be a great job. We always went there several times a year to but our Winter and Easter (Spring coats). We went up to the expensive floors to see the styles and then bought in the bargain basement. After college I would always ask for the Marshall Field label to be sewed at the inner neckline of my coat I bought . When someone took my coat I though it would be impressive. M.F, & Co, is gone and I still have the labels I cut out of the coats. It doesn't mean anything to anyone else but me....and I gotta wonder did it mean anything to anyone but me?

I was providing an analogy.  I am sorry you were unable to understand this.  

In addition, you missed my point.  I was speaking from a customer perspective, not an employee perspective.  My point stands.

You really seem like a bitter person.  I sincerely hope you can develop a more positive outlook.

Happy Holidays!  May 2022 be a better year for you

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Specializes in ED.
1 hour ago, FullGlass said:

Many of these students have the problems you touched on.  Yes, there are students at elite schools that come from the ghetto, that have already had babies, and so forth.

Can you please explain what the definition of GHETTO means?

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