Is this typical of a nursing school? Arbitrary failings, and discrimination

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In my school a fairly large number of students, including me, have been failed in our clinical courses by arbitrary decisions made by instructors. By "arbitrary decisions" I mean that the instructors are given unrestricted power to fail students without the use of predetermined standards.

In addition, these decisions seem to affect males disproportionately. This is just based on my observations, not statistics, but males appear to make up 10-20% of the students at the school while more than 90% of those failed in these arbitrary decisions are men.

I'm pretty sure gender discrimination is at work here, particularly considering that this school decides which students to admit purely based on academic standards (meaning that the disproportionate number of men being failed cannot be explained away by suggesting that men are simply weaker than women, academically speaking.) All students at this school have about a 4.0 GPA at the start of the program.

In my own experience, the instructor who failed me was very unprofessional, rude, and nasty towards me. This behavior started literally on day one, which I think disproves any possible claim that her ill will towards me was based on anything other than some sort of prejudice. She proceeded to seek out opportunities to misrepresent events in order to make me look bad, presumably so she could build a case against me to fail me.

As an example, on the paperwork with which she officially failed me in the course she vaguely stated that she had a conversation with the RN I was working with that led her to the conclusion that I "lacked initiative." What is interesting is that she made that same accusation to me in person moments after the conversation in question (which I estimate lasted about 15 seconds.) When she made the accusation to me in person, I asked her to clarify what exactly she was basing this assumption on, and she stated that the conclusion that I "lacked initiative" was based on the fact that it had come up in this conversation with the RN that a procedure had been done on my patient and that the RN had done the procedure instead of me.

I only had one RN that I was working with that day, I only had one patient that day, and my patient only had one procedure. At the time of that procedure, the RN asked the patient, "Would you rather have a female [the RN] perform this procedure instead of a male [me]?" And the patient said, "Sure. I guess I'd prefer a female." So this was an example of explicit gender discrimination that was actually cited as a reason for my instructor failing me.

I find the arbitrary nature of these decisions strange. These decisions are made against people who have invested years of their time and thousands of dollars of their money and against people who have succeeded at every step of the way in their educational career, and it is odd to me that all of their hard work can be thrown away purely based upon what appears to be an individual's personal dislike of them.

Can anyone relate to these kinds of experiences? Is this typical of nursing schools?


you are doing a fair amount of assuming, lol.

lol yes I am. That's the fun in these forums...one person assumes, the next assumes, the next says they aren't assuming but said exactly what the previous person says. Hell yeah I'm assuming haha. Bottom line though, 9/10 with threads starting like this about something was "unfair or arbitrarily done" ...it's all in how the student/nurse/person in general reacts to criticism and feedback given to them. If I were leading a group of students, and I told someone they weren't taking initiative or need to be more proactive...and they proceed to start talking like they're in court and ask (being facetious here) "to the incident in question, upon which pieces of evidence do you base your assumption". I'd fail you too. Reason you ask? Unprofessionalism...you're a student, they're a teacher, take your criticism and fix whatever the fault is. If a teacher says "omg you suck at time management". Is that nice to say? No. But you being the student, fix your time management and move on.

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
But I guess the original question of "Is this common" can't really be answered.

most of us have been to only one nursing school so we only have our own experiences and opinions to contribute.

and of any actual instructors that are on here, how many are really going to answer. " Yes, this is common, I do it all the time".

He says 90% of the males failed. Maybe it is discrimination, i would never be so naive to say it does not exist, but it could also just be that they did not perform as well as their classmates.

I believe another poster here said in her cohort the men were coddled and women thrown to sink or swim. That sucks too. Am I still in the confusion pile, someone help. Lol

I tried to answer the original question ... but because I wasn't involved in the personal arguments erupted here, I guess few people noticed. As I said in an earlier post ... In my extensive experience with multiple nursing schools and hospitals in several different regions of the country over a period of approximately 40 years, I have very rarely (but occasionally) seen discrimination against men. I won't say it never happens, but it is not common.

It is also my opinion that there is a lot more to the OP's story than he is telling -- maybe more than he is even aware of. Because of the threats of student appeals, lawsuits, etc., schools rarely fail a student without having some evidence to back it up. If the student really does deserve to pass and truly believes it was only gender discrimation that caused him to fail, he should go up the chain of command, appeal the grade, talk to a lawyer, etc.

Specializes in Primary Care, OR.
I tried to answer the original question ... but because I wasn't involved in the personal arguments erupted here, I guess few people noticed. As I said in an earlier post ... In my extensive experience with multiple nursing schools and hospitals in several different regions of the country over a period of approximately 40 years, I have very rarely (but occasionally) seen discrimination against men. I won't say it never happens, but it is not common.

It is also my opinion that there is a lot more to the OP's story than he is telling -- maybe more than he is even aware of. Because of the threats of student appeals, lawsuits, etc., schools rarely fail a student without having some evidence to back it up. If the student really does deserve to pass and truly believes it was only gender discrimation that caused him to fail, he should go up the chain of command, appeal the grade, talk to a lawyer, etc.

Yes llg, I recall your post. I thought it was very valid and appropriate to the conversation and question. I was actually quite surprised when OP totally dismissed you, I really thought that was the answer they were looking for.

Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.

Just a friendly staff note - please remember that while we encourage lively debate, we request that you debate the topic not the poster.

Thanks all.

I would like to simply say that I am sorry for what happened to you. There is an association for male nurses; American Assembly for Men in Nursing - AAMN. I would recommend contacting someone like them, for what to do next. I would speak to a school counselor. This is a scary, rough, thing to go through. What now? How do I continue my life?

If things don't go your way in the near future, I would consider going to a therapist. I don't think you are losing it, so to say, but you have gone through a traumatic experience. It can affect your ability to deal with future student teacher relationships and that a lot of trust has been lost.

I suppose I am more eager to relate as a male nursing student who has struggle with classes before. I was sad that a lot of my close friends didn't get accepted to nursing school, and curious and at the same time disheartened as to what they are going to do next. Sounds like you are in a similar boat, and again I am sorry that you had this happen.

Wow, what a tough question as well. "Is this typical of nursing schools?" I think that we can only add our two cents on what happened to us. Part of the problem with the debate is that we couldn't possible know something like that. I only know the school I will be attending next Tuesday. There is a large male population. We have been recommended/ award an honor by http://aamn.org; if I have the organization right. There have been teacher in the past that have terrible reviews on ratemyprofessor.com and I am relieved they no longer work there. What is your schools reputation like? Ours is excellent.

I remember something I saw on health care administration on youtube.com. They interviewed a CEO and she said that no one really knew what she did and they happily admitted it. They were also happy to admit that when they had a bad one they hated working there and now that they have a good one they love it. Same thing is true of nursing schools. There are policies, there are hirings, there are curriculums, etc. and they all get figured out on a school to school basis.

I can say as a former business major that there are definitely some duds out there. I have had a few teachers that I needed to drop because they weren't into lecture. Lately, my teachers have all been people that I would fight for, I love them so much.

I have read and do appreciate those answering the original question.

I just find it odd the extent to which people choose to argue based entirely on assumptions they are making.

I was also shocked that some people side with my instructor in the example I gave regarding the procedure. I understand that from your perspective my account of what happened could very well be false. I don't necessicarily know what could be gained by saying that, but I understand. What I don't get is people who don't question my version of the story and basically say the instructor was right. As I said in my original post, the instructor told me that the conclusion that I lacked initiative was based entirely on the one procedure. And people are saying here that I probably do lack initiative. It doesn't make sense unless you accept that the instructor's stated reason was valid. It never occurred to me that anybody would come to that conclusion.

And then people are taking it a step further by suggesting that I lack communication skills, which was never even brought up, and people are saying I probably got kicked out due to my insubordination in asking for clarification. What kind of crappy student would hear a vague accusation from an instructor and not ask for clarification? If it had been a legitimate complaint I would want to know what I was doing wrong so I could do better.

Anyway, I do appreciate the conversation in so far as it has been about the original question. But I think I'm justified in saying that people are making some tremendous leaps in order to assume my guilt in a thread that was never intended to be a debate about my guilt or innocence.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Emergency, Trauma.
I have read and do appreciate those answering the original question.

I just find it odd the extent to which people choose to argue based entirely on assumptions they are making.

I was also shocked that some people side with my instructor in the example I gave regarding the procedure. I understand that from your perspective my account of what happened could very well be false. I don't necessicarily know what could be gained by saying that, but I understand. What I don't get is people who don't question my version of the story and basically say the instructor was right. As I said in my original post, the instructor told me that the conclusion that I lacked initiative was based entirely on the one procedure. And people are saying here that I probably do lack initiative. It doesn't make sense unless you accept that the instructor's stated reason was valid. It never occurred to me that anybody would come to that conclusion.

And then people are taking it a step further by suggesting that I lack communication skills, which was never even brought up, and people are saying I probably got kicked out due to my insubordination in asking for clarification. What kind of crappy student would hear a vague accusation from an instructor and not ask for clarification? If it had been a legitimate complaint I would want to know what I was doing wrong so I could do better.

Anyway, I do appreciate the conversation in so far as it has been about the original question.

*****But I think I'm justified in saying that people are making some tremendous leaps in order to assume my guilt in a thread that was never intended to be a debate about my guilt or innocence*****.

Based on the nature if the Internet, and this being a site with nurses on it, we are going to ask questions, we never stop assessing if someone comes on here to post, heck, anyone is going to ask a question base on what is posted; curiosity, I say.

I really can't say whether "guilt" or "innocence" plays a part; :no: people are going to express and interpret what is being written, hence the response in some of the posts; the language you select and response to posters asking you questions presents a PERCEPTION, and perception is only what one can base anything about a person on.

Unless you can prove that this was discrimination, is your plan to continue on through the program? If your GPA is intact, then, at this point, you have the ability to continue. If they are preventing you to do so because of GPA and any other potential issues you haven't disclosed (and you don't have to)

Then you essentially can not say it was discrimination; if your GPA is intact and they are preventing you from continuing, then you MAY lean towards that, otherwise it's pretty subjective, and it will be up to you to decide to continue if this is what you want.

You'll need more than a patient preferring a female to be able to say discrimination, love. Patients have that right.

Very true with nurse preference but that doesn't change the fact that most patients are dumb as hell which is why I don't get upset when they want a female nurse. One less needy patient for me...

Specializes in Acute Care, Rehab, Palliative.
Very true with nurse preference but that doesn't change the fact that most patients are dumb as hell which is why I don't upset when they want a female nurse. One less needy patient for me...

Saying that "most patients are dumb as hell" is very offensive. You should have more respect for the people you care for.That attitude is very unprofessional.

Saying that "most patients are dumb as hell" is very offensive. You should have more respect for the people you care for.That attitude is very unprofessional.

Sorry not sorry, if I have to explain why COPD exacerbation, diabetic neuropathy and alcohol withdrawals happen more than I already do I think I am going to go insane. A large majority of people are in hospitals because they put themselves there regardless of dictated education and we see them over and over again. Not all patients are dumb but many are. Is ignorant to basic life facts a better definition for you?

Going out on a limb here, but did you ever argue like this with your instructor? Perhaps she dislikes that sort of personality :cool:

It's called people skills. If OP displayed them in clinicals as well as he's displaying them here, then the failure wasn't arbitrary.

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