In my school a fairly large number of students, including me, have been failed in our clinical courses by arbitrary decisions made by instructors. By "arbitrary decisions" I mean that the instructors are given unrestricted power to fail students without the use of predetermined standards.
In addition, these decisions seem to affect males disproportionately. This is just based on my observations, not statistics, but males appear to make up 10-20% of the students at the school while more than 90% of those failed in these arbitrary decisions are men.
I'm pretty sure gender discrimination is at work here, particularly considering that this school decides which students to admit purely based on academic standards (meaning that the disproportionate number of men being failed cannot be explained away by suggesting that men are simply weaker than women, academically speaking.) All students at this school have about a 4.0 GPA at the start of the program.
In my own experience, the instructor who failed me was very unprofessional, rude, and nasty towards me. This behavior started literally on day one, which I think disproves any possible claim that her ill will towards me was based on anything other than some sort of prejudice. She proceeded to seek out opportunities to misrepresent events in order to make me look bad, presumably so she could build a case against me to fail me.
As an example, on the paperwork with which she officially failed me in the course she vaguely stated that she had a conversation with the RN I was working with that led her to the conclusion that I "lacked initiative." What is interesting is that she made that same accusation to me in person moments after the conversation in question (which I estimate lasted about 15 seconds.) When she made the accusation to me in person, I asked her to clarify what exactly she was basing this assumption on, and she stated that the conclusion that I "lacked initiative" was based on the fact that it had come up in this conversation with the RN that a procedure had been done on my patient and that the RN had done the procedure instead of me.
I only had one RN that I was working with that day, I only had one patient that day, and my patient only had one procedure. At the time of that procedure, the RN asked the patient, "Would you rather have a female [the RN] perform this procedure instead of a male [me]?" And the patient said, "Sure. I guess I'd prefer a female." So this was an example of explicit gender discrimination that was actually cited as a reason for my instructor failing me.
I find the arbitrary nature of these decisions strange. These decisions are made against people who have invested years of their time and thousands of dollars of their money and against people who have succeeded at every step of the way in their educational career, and it is odd to me that all of their hard work can be thrown away purely based upon what appears to be an individual's personal dislike of them.
Can anyone relate to these kinds of experiences? Is this typical of nursing schools?
You'll need more than a patient preferring a female to be able to say discrimination, love. Patients have that right.
This person was clearly implying that I had said that I had been discriminated against based purely on what my patient had said. So I think the two of you should get your stories straight before trying to claim that I'm only interpreting things that way because of some lack of rationality.
And if the instructor has hidden requirements that are atypical of the clinical setting (which isn't even a thing that we are actually talking about in this conversation) then it is completely the instructor's responsibility to make those requirements known. At the very least, an instructor who is asked specifically about her requirements who chooses to hide her secret, "political" requirements is setting a student up for arbitrary failure. I'm sorry: "arbitrary" failure. Because we have to put arbitrary in quotes to show that it isn't really arbitrary, it's just the male nursing student's lack of conformity with whatever undisclosed standards the instructor secretly has, which (undisclosed as they are) are completely justified. We just don't know what they are because nursing instructors are such higher beings that they need not justify their actions. It would simply be sacrilegious to suggest that they could be wrong in any way.
In fact, even if a hypothetical nursing instructor whom we have never met was taking action against a nursing student we have also never met, it would be blasphemy to suggest that she was capable of doing anything wrong and we are obliged to imagine that there are all kinds of secret details that the student is hiding in order to conceal his guilt. Because the instructor is always right.
Wait . . . we are forgetting about "political skills"! The most important part of nursing that everyone who knows nothing about my situation has identified as the obvious reason why I was failed (even though it was not mentioned in any of my experience or implied in any detail contained in this conversation.) The question has been asked: "How could a person who lacks 'the secret political skills' be able to talk to a patient or a boss?"
Well, one solution would be to talk to them in English. That tends to work pretty well for me actually.
One way in which I would not attempt to engage a patient or my boss or anybody else for that matter, is by making huge assumptions about aspects of their situation that I know nothing about and telling them that their whole perspective is based on a lack of rationality that they have due to their inability to acknowledge that everyone who has power over them is better than them in every way and they should grovel at the very thought of interacting with such people without presenting their throats to be cut.
This person was clearly implying that I had said that I had been discriminated against based purely on what my patient had said. So I think the two of you should get your stories straight before trying to claim that I'm only interpreting things that way because of some lack of rationality.
"This person" was actually me. I think the "two of us" agree with each other. ? I'm going to paste that entire comment again, and ask that you read it in its ENTIRETY, and know that I posted it from a place of support and understanding - not criticism.
You'll need more than a patient preferring a female to be able to say discrimination, love. Patients have that right. I do believe there is more to this as well.
I understand you are upset. Getting a bad grade is frustrating, no matter what the reason. Clinical grades are entirely subjective in a lot of programs. They rate you based on your performance. How do you assign an objective number to demeanor? To compassion? To conscientiousness? To attention to detail, when there isn't a set number of events that will occur on any given day? It's not possible. You will win some, you will lose some. There will be times when you disagree with the feedback down to your core. But you will learn from it nonetheless, and you will have to come to terms with the fact that having an instructor is like having a boss: you don't get to pick one you get along with well. Sometimes personality DOES come into play. I can tell you I know for a fact I would have had a better grade my second semester in med/surg if I had not had a particular instructor. But you get what you get, and you suck it up, take what you can from it, and move on. The good news here is you get to walk away from this person without your employment being jeopardized.
Ask what you can do better. Really ask. And listen. Don't take it personally. Adjust, and move on.
Based on everything you have said here in this thread, I feel even more strongly that it is MORE than simply gender that has to do with you being failed. If you have completely misinterpreted things in writing here, when they have largely been supportive of you, what have you misinterpreted from your instructor's comments?
The reason I said you'll need more than a patient preferring a female to say discrimination is not because I am making a gross assumption. It's because BASED ON YOUR OP, that was the only SPECIFIC detail you gave us to justify your discrimination claim. The only story I had to go by was the one you shared, and I was trying to encourage you to consider what ELSE is contributing to this story. Because I do promise you, it is more than you think.
If I WERE to make an assumption, it would be that if your attitude toward clinical faculty has resembled your attitude here in the slightest, then they DO have cause for concern, and it makes sense that your grade reflected that, as it should.
"Politics" is not a "core value" of nursing, but it IS a requirement that you be able to be cordial to people you would otherwise not want to. That is part of professionalism. "Politics" is a life skill. It is necessary in nursing, because you are not going to like everyone you are supposed to help or everyone you work with, but you have to be able to swallow that dislike to do your job. Your first professional exposure very well might be in nursing school, with clinical faculty, preceptors and students you don't like. And you know what? They might not like you either. But you all are required to get alone. That is the politics involved here.
I will leave you with a favorite quote that I discovered in the signature line of Esme12:
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
OP, you don't come across as defensive to me. From reading your first and subsequent post, it never appeared as though you were touting discrimination with regards to your instructor. As you said, the patient chose not to have a male do the procedure, which is completely within their right but does constitute discrimination. Your point about how it would have been considered discrimination had it been based on race or sexual orientation is valid. Nursing is a good field to go into. I hope some of the responses you've received don't completely deter you from the profession. Good luck.
I wouldn't assume that they kicked you out just because you are male. Was it just that one incident that the teacher had a problem with? I have seen people get ousted from nursing school yes, but it was over more than one incident and it was viewed as being justified.Do you have proof it was because you are male? Failing students is not arbitrary or discriminatory in my experience.
Did you have any previous issues with this instructor or was this the very first time she had a problem with your performance in clinical?
Eh, I wouldn't go so far as to say it can't be arbitrary. Without going into details, I had a clinical instructor in nursing school who just picked one student every rotation that she was going to fail. Although I had never had anything but glowing reviews from all other instructors, all nurses I was assigned to work with, and for the most part, fellow students and patients seemed to like me as well, she decided I was going to fail. Could not give me any objective reason why. Just kept saying I was not meeting pass criteria for the rotation.
Now, am I saying that it's always the case? Of course not. If anything, based on similar threads on AN, it often seems like there is something else going on not mentioned by the OP, or heck, that the OP might just be oblivious to.
To THIS particular OP, if you really feel your instructor was unjust, then try to appeal the decision. Approach with facts, not opinions. Try not to come off as defensive and argumentative as you have on here. Perhaps get a written statement from this nurse you say caused the cherry on the sundae so to speak.
Also...if one failing grade does not get you removed from the program, then it certainly would behoove your instructor to give you constructive feedback with regards to your actions or behaviors that made him/her feel you were deserving of the failing grade. Otherwise, you have a student that's allowed to continue on, but not given the proper information or tools to make the necessary adjustments to be successful.
What? Why would she mention the procedure that was mentioned in the original post but not mention the inability to get along with people if that was a real reason? Is she afraid that students will complain of discrimination against people who don't get along with other people?
That's stupid.
What's interesting is your willingness to become hostile towards me without knowing the details of my situation. I find it very odd.
There is a word for people who make strong negative opinions about other people without knowing the details of their situation.
Holy good God. A part of me was really identifying with you OP from having issues with unfair instructors myself. To answer your original question, yes, some instructors are unfair and arbitrarily will try to mess up your life, livelihood, finances, etc. Just like it will happen with jobs and bosses, as others have mentioned.
But geesh...the more you respond, the more I think your obvious attitude and tendency for passive-aggressive lashing out is at least a big part of you failing. If you spoke like you have on here, to people who have been there, done that, to people who have genuinely tried to help you, then I can't even imagine how you interacted with someone who was doing anything less than licking the soles of your nursing shoes.
Seriously, if you really feel this strongly about nursing, then back off, relax, try to look deep inside and figure out where this attitude comes from. Then dust yourself of and try again. Just try...differently.
Sorry, Kylam; I didn't mean that literally "everyone's" posts were disturbing. I simply was referring to what I saw as the consensus in the thread.
I have tried arguing my case with the school and they have not listened, much like many people in this thread have not listened. It seems it is much easier to dismiss a student and make the assumption that any flaws in their accuser's story is somehow the student's fault.
As I tried to imply in the original post (by identifying that brief story as an example of my instructor's behavior,) this was an example of the kinds of things my instructor brought against me. I do not wish to list every detail as it is a waste of time. As I stated in my original post, my instructor tried to find excuses to misrepresent things that happened to make me look bad. I'm not going to explain every detail of my situation. That would be silly, and my intention was never to have a whole conversation about my particular case.
Whatever I say, people are going to allude to the unmentioned aspects of my situation that they assume prove my guilt. Which in turn proves their own prejudice against me. As I mentioned to the first poster, it is reasonable to approach a stranger's story like this with skepticism. But making the assumption that a story like this is a lie told by a crappy nursing student who deserved to be failed at the very least and probably should be imprisoned for his actions is just a strange perspective. One that should be evaluated, especially since the issues of discrimination are brought up.
By the way, not trying to start yet another argument (I honestly am not trying to have arguments with anyone,) but what do you mean by passive-aggressive attitude? I felt like I was aggressive only where I needed to be and passive-aggressive nowhere, but I'd like to know what you meant by that. Thanks.
The fact that no one argued the statement about a female being kicked out of med school for being female didn't imply we thought it was ok, it implied the statement was too ridiculous and irrelevant to even address.
OP said he had problems with the instructor from day one. it's in the original post..
Now, politics.. yes, it is VERY important in this day and age. "Politics" has gotten many nurses disciplined and even fired.
Perhaps, when you noticed on day one that the atmosphere was not ideal with your instructor, if you had made an appointment
to speak to her about her expectations, etc. that you would have had a more equitable time of it. As for your question regarding arbitrary decisions made by instructors in nursing school, remember that all schools are not the same, all instructors are human, and
nursing school is very difficult. Perhaps the instructor spoke with the nurse that you worked with, and received input that would have made the decision less arbitrary. If, in fact, the instructor did give you a failing grade simply for the omitted procedure, that would certainly have been unfair.
I think, though, that maybe you both began on the wrong foot and continued in a downward spiral. I am sorry that you had to go through this.
I wish you the best..
^This.
Since we were not there, and based on your original post, did this instructor provide ANY expectations, for example, seek the instructor out during procedures, meds, etc.? I only ask because of the experiences that I had in school was to communicate EVERYTHING to the nursing instructors before the first procedure or med pass to ensure competency, then as needed, especially if a pt declines you for an assignment or procedure; and your best bet was to make yourself available to ensure clinical opportunities-that was showing a clinical skill of communication and advocacy to one's practice.
My nursing instructors were very transparent; they had rubrics and standards as to what was needed for students to pass the course, just like us; our program also gave us an overview of what we were to be "graded" on so there was NO discrepancy on what was expected. We were "graded" for our mid term; feedback was initiated; if one had discrepancies or was in clinical danger, they were referred to the dean for a performance improvement plan with the clinical instructor; if it was not rectified, the student failed clinicals and failed the course.
Your best bet is to refer to your policies and speak to the dean; find that nurse you were working with and see if you can get a statement; ask for feedback on what was considered "lacking"; call out on whether there was anything lacking clinical skills wise.
All the male students in my cohort passed; they are all working as nurses at this time.
The only example from my situation that was mentioned by me was identified by word as an, "example."
I never stated, "This is every detail of my situation."
In order to appease you, let me also share this: my instructor also expressed that at one point she saw me from a distance "sitting at a computer."
I was charting.
I hope that helps you to feel better about my side of the story since I've now expressed two details of my particular situation, even though the thread (based on the title of the thread and my original post) is about the general practices of the school, and I never asked anyone to say my instructor was wrong in failing me.
This thread was never about my instructor.
The fact that you are pretending it is about one situation says something about you lot.
Actually I am not "pretending it is about one situation", precisely why I asked for more information or other events that you state happened along the way. But we're not talking about you, right? So to your question about arbitrary failings... Yes I believe it can happen, your instructors are human and therefore have the potential to make "poor judgement" calls but I don't think this is common. Your expectations are made clear in clinicals and most schools have some type of grading rubric with competencies which DO include "plays nice with others".
I agree with her.
To answer your original question, yes, some instructors are unfair and arbitrarily will try to mess up your life, livelihood, finances, etc. Just like it will happen with jobs and bosses, as others have mentioned.
But I also do believe that most students claiming arbitrary failure do not realize their own shortcomings. There are three sides to every story. So the best they can do is attempt to appeal the decision and hope for one of two results. 1.) they victor and the clinical instructor is found in the wrong, 2,) they're decision is upheld and the student can go home for a year and self-reflect. So good luck with that if you decide to appeal your own failure that we're not discussing here anymore. I hope you get whatever you need out of it, truly.
and I won't even address your attempt to personally attack me. I believe you were upset (but whoa nelly watch that keyboard;).) Plus its Valentine's Day and I like the mood I woke up in.
I could say that, based on what you have said, you should have been failed by your nursing instructors. That is a childish thing to say.
I have misinterpreted nothing that you have said. If we are going to reread things that people have already said, read my original post. It clearly shows that I was not attempting to begin a weird, pointless trial about discrimination via the internet with random people I've never met as the judges, with one incident cited as evidence, and with no possibility of any conclusion. I merely brought up that particular case because it was specifically named as a reason for me being failed and any reasonable person who heard the facts could see that it was inappropriate in one way or another (the important word being "reasonable.") I was simply asking about everyone else's experiences, trying to see if my experience with my school was typical.
And your comment of "support and understanding" states in the second sentence that I'm probably hiding something that condemns me.
Gender discrimination is not even really the point of my post, I was merely curious if other people had similar experiences. But it is interesting how people are so quick to suggest that any hint towards gender discrimination in nursing makes a person an obvious moron who is unable to communicate with patients and bosses due to a lack of the "secret political skill." One interesting thing ignored from my original post is the observation that men make up 20% of students and 90% of students who are failed.
Is this because all men lack the "secret political skill"? Is that why it is secret? Because only women have it?
That would explain why it was such a secret.
uRNmyway
I don't understand your problem with me. What do you mean by "passive aggressive"? Are you referring to my slight use of sarcasm towards people who are overtly attacking my character without evidence? If so, that is not what passive-aggressive is.
And regarding my completely legitimate example about a female being kicked out of medical school, one poster specifically said that it would be "ridiculous" for a female medical student to complain about being kicked out of medical school on the basis that a male patient refused to have a female doctor.
I don't understand. We are talking about a nursing instructor citing as a specific reason for failing a student the fact that the student did not perform a procedure that he was prohibited from performing as a male. My comparison was a female medical student prohibited from performing a procedure based on her gender. Exact same situation except genders are switched and nursing school is switched with medical school..
Again, I don't understand your objection to me. Besides the fact that I defend myself when attacked, which is not something I dislike about myself. Maybe that is why (as this thread suggests) I am unwelcomed in the nursing world.
Madras,
What are you talking about? You allude to my "personal attacks against you."
I just spent 10 minutes looking for something that could be construed as a personal attack, and all I found was you suggesting that I was guilty of all kinds of terrible things that have never been brought up in this conversation (but in your mind obviously exist,) and me basically saying, "Nope you're wrong about that."
Is that my personal attack? Saying that you're wrong in your personal attacK?
If so, sounds like you're taking things "personally."
If there is something I'm missing, I apologize, but I can't find it.
your original quote, was a misread of the OP. He DID NOT say he was failed do to the patient's discrimination but the instructors bias. He was asking if this was common. At no time did I get a poor me attitude from the OP, but a "***" was that all about???? I also don't see that the OP was misunderstanding very much, persons were NOT responding to what he asked, and he repeatedly tried to redirect responses to his question. I find many of the responses on this thread to be childish and unhelpful, and obviously having nothing to do with the original question. I am embarrassed with the lack of critical thinking skills being showcased. ..good luck to the OP.
"This person" was actually me. I think the "two of us" agree with each other. I'm going to paste that entire comment again, and ask that you read it in its ENTIRETY, and know that I posted it from a place of support and understanding - not criticism.
Based on everything you have said here in this thread, I feel even more strongly that it is MORE than simply gender that has to do with you being failed. If you have completely misinterpreted things in writing here, when they have largely been supportive of you, what have you misinterpreted from your instructor's comments?
The reason I said you'll need more than a patient preferring a female to say discrimination is not because I am making a gross assumption. It's because BASED ON YOUR OP, that was the only SPECIFIC detail you gave us to justify your discrimination claim. The only story I had to go by was the one you shared, and I was trying to encourage you to consider what ELSE is contributing to this story. Because I do promise you, it is more than you think.
If I WERE to make an assumption, it would be that if your attitude toward clinical faculty has resembled your attitude here in the slightest, then they DO have cause for concern, and it makes sense that your grade reflected that, as it should.
"Politics" is not a "core value" of nursing, but it IS a requirement that you be able to be cordial to people you would otherwise not want to. That is part of professionalism. "Politics" is a life skill. It is necessary in nursing, because you are not going to like everyone you are supposed to help or everyone you work with, but you have to be able to swallow that dislike to do your job. Your first professional exposure very well might be in nursing school, with clinical faculty, preceptors and students you don't like. And you know what? They might not like you either. But you all are required to get alone. That is the politics involved here.
I will leave you with a favorite quote that I discovered in the signature line of Esme12:
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." (Ralph Waldo Emerson)
I'm thinking he did argue with her. In the original post he mentioned asking her to "clarify what she based this assumption on". Now...going out on a limb too lol...but I'm willing to bet a dollar when she said he lacked initiative he said word for word with some look on his face "um. what are you basing this assumption on". As a nurse who deals with orienting new people to the hospital, don't talk to me about assumption when I give you feedback. If I give you feedback and say you lack initiative and spoke with the nurse about this, there is no assumption. That's what nurses call an "assessment".
Capp
111 Posts
This person was clearly implying that I had said that I had been discriminated against based purely on what my patient had said. So I think the two of you should get your stories straight before trying to claim that I'm only interpreting things that way because of some lack of rationality.
And if the instructor has hidden requirements that are atypical of the clinical setting (which isn't even a thing that we are actually talking about in this conversation) then it is completely the instructor's responsibility to make those requirements known. At the very least, an instructor who is asked specifically about her requirements who chooses to hide her secret, "political" requirements is setting a student up for arbitrary failure. I'm sorry: "arbitrary" failure. Because we have to put arbitrary in quotes to show that it isn't really arbitrary, it's just the male nursing student's lack of conformity with whatever undisclosed standards the instructor secretly has, which (undisclosed as they are) are completely justified. We just don't know what they are because nursing instructors are such higher beings that they need not justify their actions. It would simply be sacrilegious to suggest that they could be wrong in any way.
In fact, even if a hypothetical nursing instructor whom we have never met was taking action against a nursing student we have also never met, it would be blasphemy to suggest that she was capable of doing anything wrong and we are obliged to imagine that there are all kinds of secret details that the student is hiding in order to conceal his guilt. Because the instructor is always right.
Wait . . . we are forgetting about "political skills"! The most important part of nursing that everyone who knows nothing about my situation has identified as the obvious reason why I was failed (even though it was not mentioned in any of my experience or implied in any detail contained in this conversation.) The question has been asked: "How could a person who lacks 'the secret political skills' be able to talk to a patient or a boss?"
Well, one solution would be to talk to them in English. That tends to work pretty well for me actually.
One way in which I would not attempt to engage a patient or my boss or anybody else for that matter, is by making huge assumptions about aspects of their situation that I know nothing about and telling them that their whole perspective is based on a lack of rationality that they have due to their inability to acknowledge that everyone who has power over them is better than them in every way and they should grovel at the very thought of interacting with such people without presenting their throats to be cut.