Is someone justified in harassing someone to tell them if they got vaccinated or not?

[DesiDani]

Say you got vaccinated and choose not to stand in the middle of the street to tell the world. Yet friend or coworker keeps nagging you to tell them if you did or not 

[JKL33]

Preemptively:

Yes, I know life's not fair.

Yes, I know that innumerable life circumstances carry some degree of risk.

But....since there is actually a pandemic, maybe institutions such as the FDA could step up a little and do even more to help mitigate some of this.

[toomuchbaloney]

4 minutes ago, JKL33 said:

Then the common lay person is going to say let the FDA approve it then. With all due respect (sincerely) TMB, I am not going to engage this line of discussion any more, or at least right now. I feel it is functioning like an echo chamber  and is not the most productive; it leads to no solutions and is a dead-end in my book.

I would like to discuss the issue I posted about. To reframe it, a health news source that turns up easily in a lay person's web search makes statements like those in the quote I already posted. It also displays it's "fact checked" status and check marks. They have included commentary from this person, who mentions that 2 months' safety data was used for EUA and that full approval would not be granted until longer-term safety data (than that) was available. [If it matters, I didn't cherry-pick this, I was curious what lay persons would see if they searched "when will covid vaccine be approved by FDA" or "why haven't covid vaccines received full approval" and this was simply the top hit].

I am not arguing on behalf of myself. I am reporting the types of things that lay persons genuinely looking for information can come across with ease.

Now, my more controversial stance is that the situation right now is that the vaccines are not fully approved in this country because reasons, while the average sincerely hesitant individual is or will be placed into a situation of (as they see it) taking a risk while the FDA takes their time and takes their 60 days to decide how they're going to evaluate the application and blah, blah, blah. What that is, is letting the masses worry about it while the FDA protects their interests. And yes, I do know and believe that if the FDA does their job properly, that is in every single person's interest, society's interest, not just their own institutional interest. But it still doesn't feel completely fair at this juncture.

According to your argument about how it is BS that it is that this isn't pretty much completely safe, I agree! Well then our FDA should have a MUCH better publicity campaign explaining their process and that the hold-up isn't safety but the real reason. And they should kick it into high gear instead of having meetings to decide when they should meet. They appear to the public like THEY are hesitant to put their skin in the game, while everyone else is supposed to do exactly that.

You are not looking at this with much granularity. People ARE running into acquaintances on the street who tell them that so-and-so healthy friend/family member dropped dead 4 days after the vax. It is NOT that every single unvaxxed person is unvaxxed because they are drinking a steady diet of Q-cola. I am going to start getting serious about confronting some of these portrayals of people. They are lay people. They are the same people that bring their child to the ED because it had a fever, they gave tylenol and the fever went away but now it's back. THAT's what we are dealing with. Just run of the mill ignorance. My interpretations I am sharing are based on interactions in the ED and primary care.

I'm looking at it from this granular level.  To the lay person, the most direct and understandable explanation is that the concern is not reasonable and is, in fact, made up with the intention of confusing people and creating concern where no scientifically sound concern exists. There is evidence to support this reality IF that lay person will accept it.  Some of those lay people will get angry and defensive because they feel some other emotional connection to this hesitancy.  Some will be surprised to be given such a direct response. I don't waste my time trying to convince people. 

[toomuchbaloney]

3 minutes ago, JKL33 said:

Preemptively:

Yes, I know life's not fair.

Yes, I know that innumerable life circumstances carry some degree of risk.

But....since there is actually a pandemic, maybe institutions such as the FDA could step up a little and do even more to help mitigate some of this.

I'm not certain what can be done.  We have a dangerously large segment of the population which is comfortable believing conspiracy theory, wild speculation and outright lies. A free society is free to be gullible and manipulated. 

[JKL33]

1 hour ago, MunoRN said:

I think part of the problem is that we tend to use "safety and efficacy" as though it's a single parameter that is being studied.

 

1 hour ago, MunoRN said:

It was the presence of sufficient safety data, despite still awaiting more efficacy data, that led the FDA and it's related agencies in various countries to issue broad emergency use authorization.

Yes.

This is a good train of thought as far as weak spots in public educational campaigns.

[JKL33]

7 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

I don't waste my time trying to convince people. 

I do. I start by asking them in a low-key/friendly manner what kinds of concerns or questions they have. "Anything you've heard that you're not sure about...?" Etc. I know this isn't a huge accomplishment but I just won someone over last week with this very approach and they got the shot right then and there.

[JKL33]

6 minutes ago, toomuchbaloney said:

I'm not certain what can be done.  We have a dangerously large segment of the population which is comfortable believing conspiracy theory, wild speculation and outright lies. A free society is free to be gullible and manipulated. 

I have my flash points, too:  We could've gone without things like the derision from authorities that started immediately (thinking of our Surgeon General's sarcastic and disparaging tweet about how masks don't help).

If we want people to believe the truth, then we shouldn't have our authorities bust out of the gate with lies, no matter what their reasons were.

I do blame conspiracy theorists, too. I do. 

But damn, we don't have to hand them fodder on a silver platter.

[guest1178273]

3 hours ago, MunoRN said:

And I agree that actually calling someone an idiot is disrespectful.

But the impression you've given is that simply pointing out false claims are false is disrespectful because it implies the person making false claims is an idiot.

One of your comments from the now closed Did you just try to bully me? thread:

I would agree with you however that in the absence of a recognized contraindication to the vaccine, fear and misinformation are not the only reasons why someone would refuse the vaccine, amorality would be the other reason.  

wow..judgmental aren't we

[MunoRN, RN]

32 minutes ago, underpressure said:

wow..judgmental aren't we

Observant.

I'm open to how you would prefer to describe the categories of reasons for not getting vaccinated.

• Those with an established contraindication to the vaccine.
• Those whose reasoning for refusing vaccination is based on misinformation or avoidance of facts.
• Those who have an accurate understanding of the basis for vaccination but don't agree that we should protect others from harm (amoral).

[toomuchbaloney]

2 hours ago, JKL33 said:

I do. I start by asking them in a low-key/friendly manner what kinds of concerns or questions they have. "Anything you've heard that you're not sure about...?" Etc. I know this isn't a huge accomplishment but I just won someone over last week with this very approach and they got the shot right then and there.

I think that's good. 

I am retired.  I encourage my circle of influence to vaccinate and practice safe mitigation behaviors in public.  I live in the very very conservative interior of Alaska.  My family in the lower 48 is in conservative Nebraska and Michigan and Wyoming and Colorado.  Fewer than 50% of the white population in this region is vaccinated.  The native population has a higher rate of vaccination.  You've maybe seen some videos of aggressive people in Fairbanks because of masks. That's because that kind of angry toxic masculinity  behavior is common in a state that leads in domestic violence and rape statistics. That means that when I mention vaccination in gatherings of people it is inevitable that I will encounter at least one person who will become obnoxious on the topic.  

I  encourage vaccination and the minute someone shows their disinterest in the pandemic and vaccines I let it go. 

Here, however, I'm responding to nurses who shouldn't be believing unsupported suspicion instead of the facts and evidence. You might change their minds...

[toomuchbaloney]

2 hours ago, JKL33 said:

I have my flash points, too:  We could've gone without things like the derision from authorities that started immediately (thinking of our Surgeon General's sarcastic and disparaging tweet about how masks don't help).

If we want people to believe the truth, then we shouldn't have our authorities bust out of the gate with lies, no matter what their reasons were.

I do blame conspiracy theorists, too. I do. 

But damn, we don't have to hand them fodder on a silver platter.

I'm not certain how not entertaining their belief in fabrication and suspicions is handing them fodder. 

Sticking to the facts and evidence in an uncompromising and direct fashion is pretty infallible.  Trump's appointees were politically interfered with by Trump's political team and they were unable to overcome his will. All of them, starting with Birx. They each compromised their professional legacy by adding their veneer of expertise and credibility to a crazy and ineffective pandemic response from the White House. 2020 was a year punctuated by lies, dishonesty, incompetence and dishonor in addition to a half million dead Americans.  It didn't have to be like that. 

I'm still stunned by the numbers and am a bit sad that after 18 months of worse suffering than was necessary, my impatience with obvious disinformation is so troubling for people.  

[guest1178273]

5 hours ago, JKL33 said:

I'd like to see full FDA approval for qualified vaccines.

This is from a basic news article (emphasis added):
 

I think this is a factor for some (possibly smaller but still significant) portion of those still expressing genuine hesitancy. Those who actually appear hesitant (instead of outright opposed) have been using this language all along and I believe it is their sincere concern. Even though I made a different choice based on my review of available data and my understanding of the risks/benefits, I have a hard time completely faulting some of these people in light of the fact that these vaccines are hanging out there without full approval for pretty much the same exact reasons for some of the hesitancy.

Interested in others' thoughts about this factor.

100%. I'm not opposed to vaccines at all. In fact, I'm in favor of them. I've administered hundreds. But there isn't enough data at this point for the FDA to officially approve any of the covid vaccines, and I read in one article in the British Medical Journal about vaccine efficacy, that they are continuing the trial until 2022. Also, I know some people think that VAERS is somehow completely worthless, but there are enough adverse reactions reported that give plenty of rational people concern. 

Being hesitant does not mean one is "amoral". 

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04/peter-doshi-pfizer-and-modernas-95-effective-vaccines-we-need-more-details-and-the-raw-data/

[guest1163268]

9 hours ago, macawake said:

I suspect they might be. It certainly helps that Covid vaccines haven’t been politicized the way they have in the U.S. There’s really no reason to lie about having gotten the vaccine, or not.

It's that rugged individuality of Americans who thinks it's more important to never back down and never say die, even when you know you are as thick as a plank because all your life has been one stupid mistake after another! But you see it's about image Macawake, drive a nice car and all the latest phones and styles but not a pot to piss into! 

And the thing is that it's across all demographics! Living paycheck to paycheck! No exaggeration, but it is very likely true that over 65% of Americans couldn't afford a $5000 bill without going bankrupt! 

But don't you dare tell them what to do! I swear man, you don't know how many nurses and Drs are antivaxxers, it's like they bought their degrees, literally! No brain or even the capacity of critical thinking! 

I spent the weekend in Manhattan, 'the greatest city in the world' with the worst roads in the world! It really does represent Americans, Manhattan! Uncouth, aggressive and overstated! I really don't know what makes us like this, except we are so large and isolated, that decency or civility aren't necessary commodities! I mean why should we care what happens to other people if we are unvaccinated? We are tough and uncompromising, individual and rugged, self sufficient! And we are the masters of HYPOCRISY! 

Don't treat me like I'm stupid for not taking the vaccine because I will show you what's what, even when I'm dying from Covid! 

I mean look at the clown they adore. Orange, with the most ridiculous wig and looks like the Chucky doll! Such a moron that he sued someone to prove that his father wasn't an orangutan! In any other country he would have been beaten senseless in high school for being such a moron, here he is elected president! And they listen to this caricature of a human being! 

But if ever there was a case for evolution, just point to America! Apparently, survival is actually a case of the more intelligent!