Is the RN--->BSN push a clever way to get older nurses out of the way

[Nola009]

As in certain "Baby Boomers" who wont retire? Wont we NEED a faster RN producing mechanism (hello again, ADN programs!) in order to provide enough nurses to care for this huge group of people due to retire soon?? Just wondering...

[PMFB-RN, RN]

There IS a statistical preference for BSN nurses in the acute care setting amongst physicians. In some areas, there is no preference.

(shrug) Who gives a darn about what physicians prefer? Do you think that physicians would care AT ALL if there was a statistical preference for physicans with the DO or BSBM degrees vs MD degrees among nurses? Do you think physicans would use nurse's preference when making their case about which medical degree is superior?

[cinlou, BSN, MSN, RN]

Huh? Can't even imagine any logic behind this argument.

Nope - the 'push' for BSN in acute care is being driven by compelling evidence - higher nurse education levels produce better patient outcomes. Plain and simple. I know, I know - we all know a jillion non-BSN nurses who are just the bee's knees and waaaay better than those snotty BSN grads. But the evidence is based on analysis of aggregate data - not the results of individual nurses.

I'm not with you yet on this. The studies thus far that have been done were lacking in some significant data related to rural community hospitals, universities, magnet status, how much experience the nurses had. The original study done out of PA. did not look at the years of experience the nurses had. I believe there are some new studies being done to address this issue that lacked in the original study, so for me the jury is still out.

[lemur00, BSN, RN]

We went to mandatory BScN in Saskatchewan almost 20 years ago (and LPN has become the diploma designation). Diploma RNs who already had licenses were grandfathered in. If they want to do advanced practice or education they have to get their degree, but they continue to work in the fields that have always been open to them. They have never had threats of job loss. Of course we have a provincial nurses union to protect seniority rights, so there's that.

I think it's more about standardization than anything. There really shouldn't be multiple levels of education for the same designation and often the uneven education is used as a criticism of nursing in general and an argument to keep nurses from increasing scope. The most obvious answer to that criticism is to standardize.

[Gentleman_nurse, MSN]

I also suspect that the BSN requirement is somewhat of a class-based sorting tool

You took the words out of my mouth. An HR recruiter shared with me they favor applicants who did a 4 year BSN program vs an ADN-BSN because of 'professionalism'.

[TheCommuter, BSN, RN]

An HR recruiter shared with me they favor applicants who did a 4 year BSN program vs an ADN-BSN because of 'professionalism'.

I agree. I've heard too many coded, covert references to social class from administration and management regarding the push for BSN degrees, so I have reason to believe the preference is class-based.

When referring to students of community colleges and vocational schools, I've heard the following biased statements: "Those students live in the moment." "They're unprepared to handle more rigorous coursework." "They're first generation students." "Maybe their backgrounds and unsupportive families hindered them from going to school longer."

Whaddya know? The community college system is where most ASN-degreed nurses are educated. It's classism under the mendacious guise of 'professionalism.'

[tokmom, BSN, RN]

Your statement looks good in paper but the reality is another. The surplus of nursing graduates are pushing the wages down to start with. Second, too many ways to obtain a BSN degree these days, anyone can become one in 15 months with those ABSN programs, no matter if they weren't a science major before. I see a constant surplus of BSN prepared Rn in the future, so wages will be pushed down further. Your wage argument is invalidated by this.

You are new in the forums so you may have not read yet the many threads that cover this subject, but the push is not to improve patient outcomes, is for obtaining magnet status, and to slowly get rid of RN that are on the higher end of the payscale via attrition.

I believe in personal motivation to improve ones education, but i don't like the many excuses they use to push for the BSN, when hospitals have been using non BSN nurses for a long time and this never was an issue before. Now with the surplus of graduates they decide to play this card.

Your area may have a real need for nurses, but many other areas have a high unemployment rate for new grads. So you cant generalize from your limited experience.

You are way to young to remember, but the swing from only BSN in hospitals is much like a pendulum. This was a phenomenon in some parts of the country in the early 80's and when there was too many RN's. The hospitals were selective and mandated a year of experience AND a BSN.

When the shortage hit, hospitals were practically setting snares on the street trying to capture anything that resembled a nurse. Now the pendulum has swung back and we are back into BSN only mode. I'm sure it will swing the other way, again, but I think much slower this time. As others have mentioned, retirements suck and the older generation, including myself, will be stuck working until 70 for insurance and money, so therefore nurses are not retiring as quickly.

However, with that being said, there needs to be higher education for nurses other than an ADN. I think it's time to lessen the population of nurses, up the ante, if you will, to pull on the shorthairs of administration to give nurses the respect and power they deserve. The more the RN is equally educated to their other healthcare peers, the better off we will be in the long run. Nursing certainly cannot say we are the most educated group of individuals when our co-workers need a minimum 4 year degree to walk into a hospital.

Magnet: That depends where you live. Where I'm from, Magnet is not even a big deal. I know of one hospital near me that is BSN/Magnet hospital. Others prefer BSN and have no plans in the near future of becoming Magnet. Hospitals want BSN due to the IOM report and pt based outcomes stating that pt's receive better care with a BSN prepared nurse.

Wages: Also dependent if you are a unionized facility or not. Again, in my neck of the woods, the hospitals that are NOT union are very rare. Wages cannot be driven down, because the unionized nurse is protected from this happening, so again, you cannot generalize.

BSN programs: Do not generalize the diploma mill mentality of Accelerated BSN programs. They aren't cut out for everyone and you just don't get your degree by handing over $$.

Nobody knows if this BSN/ADN pendulum will swing back again or not. Hard telling with the economy, but my guess it's going to be slow, as mentioned above.

However, no ADN can say they were caught by surprise for the BSN push. It's been coming now for well over 20 years.

[ceccia]

Also, plenty of older RNs have BSNs and plenty of younger nurses don't; I haven't seen that phenomenon as particularly age-related.

agreed. if there is a discriminatory angle here, it's against the working poor/lower income imho. An ADN is/was an affordable way to get started in nursing. A four year degree is insanely expensive no matter how many cost-saving methods you employ (in-state public university in most states still costs more than many people without a degree earn in a year, live with parents - not always an option especially for working adults, etc.)

If nothing else, it's simply another case of degree inflation which conveniently nets the universities more $$$$ and forces people to indebt themselves to the government and/or their big-business private student loan cronies.

I did an accelerated MSN so I don't have a bias based on my own qualifications/experiences. Personally I think our society hugely over-values university degrees and under-values experience.

[ArtClassRN, ADN, RN]

Is there any evidence that these ridiculous shake-and-bake online RN-BSN programs (including ones hosted by brick and mortar schools) are producing better patient outcomes?

You have cited a correlation. What is the cause?

[cinlou, BSN, MSN, RN]

You took the words out of my mouth. An HR recruiter shared with me they favor applicants who did a 4 year BSN program vs an ADN-BSN because of 'professionalism'.

I don't think over-all you are too far from the truth. I do like the previous statement about standardization though.

Many of those who have started out as CNA's, LPN's ADN's may be a bit more rough around the edges because they are the working class. Heck, I am one of those. I have had to learn to refine myself a bit over the years as I have moved up the ladder, but as I like to say "sometimes my roots (ruts) come out"

I have tried to focus a bit more on this in our LPN program and talk about how they are perceived by others and the best way to break stereotypes is by being the role model.

[Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN]

I am not even sure how to respond to the statements that ADN nurses are less professional and from a "lower" working class and in the obtaining a BSN somehow refines ones "class".

I am rendered speechless and that is hard to do.

[ICURNBSN]

Most other higher level professions require Baccalaureate degrees. Nursing has held out because of the "nursing shortage" and the need to create nurses in a shorter amount of time. BSN is the way nursing needs to go for the future nurses coming in to the field. I understand that there are EXCELLENT Diploma degree nurses and Associate degree nurses however, nursing needs to catch up in this regard.

[Susie2310]

I am not even sure how to respond to the statements that ADN nurses are less professional and from a "lower" working class and in the obtaining a BSN somehow refines ones "class".

I am rendered speechless and that is hard to do.

Yes, I too am amazed at the rubbish I am reading.