Is it just nurses or........

Nurses General Nursing

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I read the posts on this site often and I always seem to see threads related to nurses not being able to obtain jobs. My question is whether or not nurses are the only major HEALTH profession facing this issue. The reason why I asked is because I have friends who have graduated pharmacy school and all of them were able to obtain jobs. As a matter of fact, they all had multiple job offers. Also, my neighbor's daughter graduated school and is an occupational therapist and she said that she and all of the others who graduated as occupational therapists from her school were also able to obtain jobs w/o any issues. So, in healthcare is it just nurses who are having a hard time finding employment? If so, what makes it easier for a pharmacist, occupational therapist or any other health profession to get a job? I mean after all, we all experienced the same recession right?

How do we not have that now? If the new nurse can pass their NCLEX, no matter what degree they have, they start in the same place. If ADN graduates didn't have the appropriate training and education, they would not become licensed.

Now, are there too many programs graduating new nurses? Absolutely. If you have suggestions for how to fix THAT, be my guest. Doing away with a type of degree is not the answer.

First let me say I am a pretty new RN, with a BSN. I work with many experienced ADN nurses and even a few diploma nurses. They are 10 times the nurse I am right now and I count on them and learn from them everyday.

And I know some new grad ADN nurses who are very bright and are just as good if not better then me.

However, if I was hiring a new grad in any profession and had to choose between two people with every other variable being equal I would choose the one with more education. Someone with more education is more LIKELY (it certainly doesn't always work out in such a way) to have a broader perspective on the world, the way a business (such as a hospital) is run, be able to relate to a wider variety of people, keep themselves healthy, continue to enhance their education, etc. They are more likely to help keep the business going forward and improving and help in solving problems outide their immediate job duties.

As a nurse, why wouldn't you want your profession to be more educated? Especially if you believe too many nurses are being churned out.

And the NCLEX??? Not to pick on you because I know others have said the same, but passing the NCLEX does not make everyone equal. Passing it sure doesn't mean you are going to be a good nurse, and failing it doesn't mean you won't be a good nurse (unless you never pass of course).

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Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

Tex42cares -

I was simply pointing out that the the ANA is a political group with an agenda who is prone to spinning things in the direction that will benefit them the most, even if they extrapolate from statistics that may come from the Dept of Labor Statistics originally and should be viewed knowing that is the case.

Currently, demand in health care service facilities for Registered Nurses exceeds the present RN-supply.

I would have a hard time believing anything from a group who started out with a statement like that, so it should be part of research into the future of the nursing job market, not the gold standard for such information.

The same is true for the American Associaton of Colleges of Nursing, or AACN.

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Dude calm down lol.

Why would you assume that cutting ABSN programs equals cutting traditional BSN programs? Never said that BSN was better than ABSN. I never said that people should do all 4 years over again either. I don't know how to fix that situation. I honestly don't know. Happy? Lol

Anyway as I repeated, my whole point or logic or whatever you wanna call it was to cut the many ways to be am RN. That was my point. Now honestly I am not going to (and we obviously already have) hijack this thread over opinions.

I have stated mine and you have stated yours. Let's let others put their opinion in and if want to further this pointless debate than by all means pm me.

Peace.

It's not that I'm not calm. I'm just confused. I was really interested when you said "definately cut out all the ABSN programs", but yet you think all RN's should have a bachelors degree. Seems kinda contradictory. I figured their was some logic I was missing out on. I guess not.

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Specializes in Operating Room.
I didn't either. I had a job waiting for me when I graduated. I think it just depends on where you live.

Also, what specialty you're going into- there is a shortage of OR nurses. ORs usually have been very good about new grads because it's easier to start with a blank slate when training for the OR. Lots of ORs like to "grow their own".

I don't know though, I also had a job waiting for me, but I was already working as a surg tech in the same facility. While there are plenty of med/ surge jobs in my area, most want experience.

I feel badly for the new grads that can't get jobs- it's got to be scary, frustrating feeling.

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Specializes in ED, Telemetry,Hospice, ICU, Supervisor.
On a similar subject...

I wonder why there's this huge push to make NP's a doctorate degree, but there is almost no push to make entry level RN's a BSN?

it's all a headache. yikes

MDs are feeling that the NP specialties are pushing in on their turf. MDs and NPs can both write prescriptions, only a matter of time till MDs start to feel that some specialties are gonna start to ask for more autonomy. MDs wont like the idea of nurses stepping on their turf. Making it more difficult by extending the amount of training a NP spends in school makes the goal of being a NP more difficult. Thereby having less NP in the future asking for more autonomy/authority/power/scope of practice.

Just my own thoughts, who most benefits from making it more difficult for our professionals from advancing their careers by requiring a Doctorate. Certainly not other nurses who may one day want to become NPs. RNs at one point in time were all BSN educated the U.S, thats fine with me. Good luck switching back, and trying to get for profit institutions to comply. Pretty sure they can spend more money on lobbyists to ensure they can still charge someone $80,000 for a BSN. It is after all a good business model......(scam).

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Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.

I have noticed a tremendous amount of resentment coming from primary care doctors about what they feel to be encroachment on their turf by NPs.

Someone mentioned a while back the topic of whether or not doctors know or care what degree the average staff nurse on the unit may have. At that level I don't think they do -- they tend to evaluate nurses based on other criteria depending on their specialty and their particular needs.

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personally I blame those Johnson and Johnson ad's (sing it with me now!)

"You're a NURSE, YOOO make a difff-er-ence!"

Those ad's just make me want to hurl!

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Specializes in L&D/Maternity nursing.
How do we not have that now? If the new nurse can pass their NCLEX, no matter what degree they have, they start in the same place. If ADN graduates didn't have the appropriate training and education, they would not become licensed.

Now, are there too many programs graduating new nurses? Absolutely. If you have suggestions for how to fix THAT, be my guest. Doing away with a type of degree is not the answer.

I wasn't necessarily referring to the NCLEX and becoming licensed, but rather education as a whole. An ADN does not have the same educational training as a BSN. They have the same with regard to being able to pass the NCLEX, but the BSN coursework contains more (namely theory and research, in addition to other social science and humanities requirements required by the specific college/university). Its more wholeistic and all encompassing....much like the profession that we are to practice, no?

Yes we all pass the same NCLEX and blah blah (again, I said that horse too has been beaten one too many times, so I am not going to really entertain that argument). However, I still hold to the notion that additional education can only help you, rather than hinder. And I am of the mindset that if most other medical professions have a standardized entry into the field, well then, so should we. Most require a Bachelors, at minimum (not talking about the dental assistants and medical assistants of the world. Those are vocational professions).

Now, the affordability factor is a good thing to consider and yes, I do agree that education these days is too expensive putting it out of reach for many. But that is a horse of another color...and an argument for another day.

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Spare me the anti union,"I can speak for myself, I don't need a union to negotiate for me, I don't like unions, they are un professional" blah ,blah blah! There is nothing professional about being overworked underpaid, treated like crap, and have no job protection at all.

If that were the case then nursing would be in a lot better shape than it is now. Not unionzing is the worst thing that has happened to nurses. There is strenght in numbers- you don't have that by yourself.

Very true, but even bigger picture is: if demands are too high, they'll just start importing more nurses (who are willing to work for much less) on visas from other countries. In many ways, unions are part of the reason jobs are being lost in the US. High corporate taxes, expensive environ regs, etc are adding to the problem....and things like NAFTA & GATT are facilitating it. (NAFTA & GATT were signed into law by Clinton (D), btw....although also supported by GOP too)

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Specializes in ED, Telemetry,Hospice, ICU, Supervisor.
I wasn't necessarily referring to the NCLEX and becoming licensed, but rather education as a whole. An ADN does not have the same educational training as a BSN. They have the same with regard to being able to pass the NCLEX, but the BSN coursework contains more (namely theory and research, in addition to other social science and humanities requirements required by the specific college/university). Its more wholeistic and all encompassing....much like the profession that we are to practice, no?

Yes we all pass the same NCLEX and blah blah (again, I said that horse too has been beaten one too many times, so I am not going to really entertain that argument). However, I still hold to the notion that additional education can only help you, rather than hinder. And I am of the mindset that if most other medical professions have a standardized entry into the field, well then, so should we. Most require a Bachelors, at minimum (not talking about the dental assistants and medical assistants of the world. Those are vocational professions).

Now, the affordability factor is a good thing to consider and yes, I do agree that education these days is too expensive putting it out of reach for many. But that is a horse of another color...and an argument for another day.

I also agree we should have a standardized entry level education requirement. The problem is making institutions comply, like I have said before there are tons of for profit colleges that will charge you your first born just so you can be an RN ADN. There's more money to be made is the current situation, if you start to hammer down on enforcing the standards about BSN as entry level I guarantee they are gonna throw their weight in gold to stop the changes. The people in the profession now can easily be grandfathered in so it is not like they will lose their license, therefore those who only have Diploma, ADN or whatever wont be affected. You can put a cut off date when schools will stop teaching RN programs that dont provide a BSN education so the schooling issue is solved. But seriously who is willing to fight the battle and try to get the people in charge to make BSN entry level?

Nurses as a whole can't even decide what entry level should be. Some people think you should be a CNA then LVN then RN like climbing a ladder. Nurses as a group are way too fractured. Imagine a CNA that wants to be an RN and now has to go through 4 years of education at a University. CNA units dont transfer so you have to start from scratch at year 1 doing pre-reqs, and GE. Do you think that CNA is gonna agree with the " bright idea" some people have about entry level for RN. I dont think so because thats more work for them.

There are too many issues to be considered and I dont think there will be any changes AT ALL about making BSN as entry level.

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Specializes in Med/Surg.
MDs are feeling that the NP specialties are pushing in on their turf. MDs and NPs can both write prescriptions, only a matter of time till MDs start to feel that some specialties are gonna start to ask for more autonomy. MDs wont like the idea of nurses stepping on their turf. Making it more difficult by extending the amount of training a NP spends in school makes the goal of being a NP more difficult. Thereby having less NP in the future asking for more autonomy/authority/power/scope of practice.

Just my own thoughts, who most benefits from making it more difficult for our professionals from advancing their careers by requiring a Doctorate. Certainly not other nurses who may one day want to become NPs. RNs at one point in time were all BSN educated the U.S, thats fine with me. Good luck switching back, and trying to get for profit institutions to comply. Pretty sure they can spend more money on lobbyists to ensure they can still charge someone $80,000 for a BSN. It is after all a good business model......(scam).

Can you be specific about what point in time this was the case?

On another note:

Here's what a BSN CAN'T get you, if you don't already have them: common sense, people skills, leadership, and aptitude, to name some. These are hugely important qualities that you either have, or you don't. Would you hire a BSN that is socially stunted, cannot effectively communicate, and can't critically think their way out of a paper bag, or a ADN who is the opposite of that? (I've worked with some seriously clueless nurses of either degree, so it apparently IS possible to get through college and become licensed in spite of it). I'm not saying that those situations can't be reversed mind you, I want to mention that before someone jumps on me to point it out. I'm just (again, sigh) saying that a degree isn't the end-all, therefore increasing the entry-level degree isn't the answer.

I am not sure why I continue to try to make the point, people generally remain fully in their corners (and yes, I am doing it too, I'll admit it) so debate is futile.

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Idk if making it mandatory to get a BSN will solve this issue either. I read on an article linked to this site that in the past 10 years the number of nurses who graduated with BSN's has doubled. Also, I believe that making a BSN mandatory will only cause more openings of BSN programs and not necessarily deter people from going to nursing school. Then what happens after there are too many BSN programs? Should MSN then become the minimal entry degree for nurses?

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