Is it just nurses or........

allnurses Guide · Jun 30, 2011

Originally Posted by Nurse2bKimberly There are still quite a few hospital based diploma programs left in the United States (I know of some in PA, DE, and VA). I think that was the point Linda was trying to make.

A hospital-based diploma program is totally different than an ADN, so how could that have been the point?

I think the point Linda was trying to make was that 1 or 2 years of training to be a nurse is nowhere near adequate (especially when compared to other professions) and that "barely have an associates" was just a slightly unclear way of expressing that thought.

There are more surviving diploma programs in the east I believe, but 2009 statistics are as follows:

The baccalaureate degree earned is the Bachelor of Science in Nursing (BSN). Presently, the greatest number of nurses graduate from associate-degree programs (59%), followed by baccalaureate programs (37%), and then diploma programs (4%). Graduates of all three programs sit for the same NCLEX-RN licensing examination.

source: Kimberly A. Johnston Ed D, RNC, CNE

Methodist College of Nursing

allnurses Guide · Jun 30, 2011

. . . . I'm just (again, sigh) saying that a degree isn't the end-all, therefore increasing the entry-level degree isn't the answer.
I am not sure why I continue to try to make the point, people generally remain fully in their corners (and yes, I am doing it too, I'll admit it) so debate is futile.

Almost sounds like the last normal Stepford wife - resistance is futile :cool: nahhh I know exactly what you mean - though! I had to stand down as titanium plates don't come cheap these days . . . :banghead: no really I am trying to be more of a consensus seeker, does not always come naturally to me!!

wooh, BSN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

I said "lucky enough" because if we went to BSN only, then those that got it beforehand didn't have to do the whole BSN ride, which would mean they were "lucky" to get in before the bell rang on requiring more time in school.

But like I said, it would be nice if we could EVER manage to have a conversation without people insisting on finding a reason to be offended.

One of my coworkers has a master's degree. You know what, I don't think she's a better nurse than me. In a lot of ways I'm better. In some ways she's better. But I respect the time she put into it. I respect that she has learned more than me.

I personally threw a fit with a nursing instructor that put students with two almost new grad BSN nurses on my floor but said that the associate's degree nurse with 35 years experience wasn't qualified. If I have a question, who do you think I go to?

If you want to find something to be offended by, I'm sure you can find it. My point is, whatever happened in the past, we've now got an overflow of nurses and a lack of respect for ALL OF US from hospitals. So can't we agree that we all got great educations in the past, but perhaps changing things in the future could fix things for the better?

Back in the old days, you'd read a couple books and become a teacher at the age of 17 or 18. Is it saying that they were bad teachers by saying that now they need to get at least a bachelor's degree? No, it's not.

DarkBluePhoenix · Jul 1, 2011

I said "lucky enough" because if we went to BSN only, then those that got it beforehand didn't have to do the whole BSN ride, which would mean they were "lucky" to get in before the bell rang on requiring more time in school.
But like I said, it would be nice if we could EVER manage to have a conversation without people insisting on finding a reason to be offended.
One of my coworkers has a master's degree. You know what, I don't think she's a better nurse than me. In a lot of ways I'm better. In some ways she's better. But I respect the time she put into it. I respect that she has learned more than me.
I personally threw a fit with a nursing instructor that put students with two almost new grad BSN nurses on my floor but said that the associate's degree nurse with 35 years experience wasn't qualified. If I have a question, who do you think I go to?
If you want to find something to be offended by, I'm sure you can find it. My point is, whatever happened in the past, we've now got an overflow of nurses and a lack of respect for ALL OF US from hospitals. So can't we agree that we all got great educations in the past, but perhaps changing things in the future could fix things for the better?
Back in the old days, you'd read a couple books and become a teacher at the age of 17 or 18. Is it saying that they were bad teachers by saying that now they need to get at least a bachelor's degree? No, it's not.

WELL SAID! (as well as your previous post, which was very carefully worded, and would only make the MOST SENSITIVE person to find something wrong with it)

don't worry, someone is ALWAYS offended

allnurses Guide · Jul 1, 2011

I wasn't necessarily referring to the NCLEX and becoming licensed, but rather education as a whole. An ADN does not have the same educational training as a BSN. They have the same with regard to being able to pass the NCLEX, but the BSN coursework contains more (namely theory and research, in addition to other social science and humanities requirements required by the specific college/university). Its more wholeistic and all encompassing....much like the profession that we are to practice, no?

If that is the most important goal in the extra education over an associates, it is not the main thrust of the argument for a BSN only workforce coming from the power elite in nursing. The actual goals of these programs are set in black and white. There are a few really snooze-worthy courses but that's OK because there are people who like that type of thing.

I agree with you that those attributes are very worthwhile, but we've gotten ourselves so invested in a narrow set of choices we ignore some really cool and creative ways to accomplish the same thing that may be quite superior to sitting in a classroom studying the habits of the pre-columbian artwork of the native peoples of the Yucatan peninsula. I'm sorry

I think it's a mistake to say that (for example) if student A has taken a boatload of courses about something it is better than student B who may have lived that something but not have the stamp on their record to "prove" how broadened they are. If you approach it that way some really potentially fantastic nurses are going to be left at the curb.

To their credit, the IOM Future of Nursing report states this issue up front and center, and seem to realize what some of the negative impact the BSN-only entry may cause, but again their argument is more along knowledge that is nursing specific, but delves deeper into the issues already covered in the ASN programs.

The emphasis everyone seems to be placing is well "xyz profession has that degree" so we should, too and then worry about the content of it later on. No other profession that I know of would use a rationale like that for they do not constantly react against something else.

I really do hope that if this happens we will be respected more by other professions but I have to say that if you visit MD forums you will hear them making the exact argument against the APRN degrees in the same way the BSN advocates discuss the ASN nurse programs.

Comparing an RN to a PT/AT program is apples to oranges. My daughter is year 5 of a program it is so different! They have the kids out taping ankles in the 1st year and increase the complexity of their clinical practice as time goes on so now she can pretty much handle all by herself a teamload of sprains and strains, etc.

I think it would be great if we had a mandatory 4 year program but able to split off and specialize with a residency type experience so people that want to be statistical numbers-crunchers can do that and I can go to the Yucatan peninsula and teach "therapeutic pottery making".

Melmarie all this is not directed at you but sort of a springboard of my thoughts!:)

Psychtrish39, BSN, RN · Jul 1, 2011

I get so irritated over the whole associate vs bachelor nurse issue. First off at least in Illinois they both take the same NCLEX test. At many facilities they work side by side on the floors or in surgery at the same pay. IF you wish to go into management or further your education to advanced practice nursing then by all means get your bachelors degree to start off. In my case I went to nursing school at 45 and had no desire to go on with an advanced degree. I did retail management for many many years and I am quite content to be a nurse with an associates degree and very proud of it. All you associate or diploma nurses be very proud!

They do in Missouri too where I was first licensed they do in Washington state also. I think it doesnt matter but Magnet designation hospitals and most or some facilities say BSN preferred. I became a practicing nurse with my Associates but I am finishing my BSN because the day will come as I became a nurse in my late 30s to not be able to work the floor. I am finishing it for insurance for me to stay in the field if it comes to that.

I agree we are all RNs and really all my RN to BSN coursework is some electives and theory classes but it is the way it is getting unfortunately . :nurse:

melmarie23, MSN, RN · Jul 1, 2011

The thing that has impressed me the most about my new employer is how much they value education. Not only do they have a really great tuition assistance program ( a very generous one at that) they have past loan assistance. They provide free of cost the access to the CEU and all the CEU's (not sure if this is standard but the way I heard it being talked about today a few new employees were really impressed they pay for this). They have extensive online education tools and classes in person and online free to employees that count as college credits. They come up with education goals that you set and they help you to achieve them.
They also take health very seriously and provide wonderful health screenings (that won't count against you, like biometrics screening) and tools all free. In fact if you do the biometrics screening you get a 50 dollar gift card and they set you up with a plan to get healthier. Free gym membership and so forth and so on. I just am in awe that in this economy this company has decided to invest more money into their employees because the way they see it a happy employee makes for a happy patient experience.

its great that they treat you so well. Its awesome that an employer can make their employees happy like that-it helps them retain their nurses for sure!