Is it just nurses or........

livelaughlove09 · Jun 30, 2011

Can you be specific about what point in time this was the case?
On another note:
Here's what a BSN CAN'T get you, if you don't already have them: common sense, people skills, leadership, and aptitude, to name some. These are hugely important qualities that you either have, or you don't. Would you hire a BSN that is socially stunted, cannot effectively communicate, and can't critically think their way out of a paper bag, or a ADN who is the opposite of that? (I've worked with some seriously clueless nurses of either degree, so it apparently IS possible to get through college and become licensed in spite of it). I'm not saying that those situations can't be reversed mind you, I want to mention that before someone jumps on me to point it out. I'm just (again, sigh) saying that a degree isn't the end-all, therefore increasing the entry-level degree isn't the answer.
I am not sure why I continue to try to make the point, people generally remain fully in their corners (and yes, I am doing it too, I'll admit it) so debate is futile.

Have to agree. I also have to say that I think it's comical that reading posts in the forums it irritates me that there are people screaming about BSN nurses being more intelligent, or costing more money, or being better prepared for entry level nursing when the improper use of our English language, or horrible spelling errors jump off the page and slap me in the face (sorry, a pet peeve of mine.). Art history doesn't make a better nurse. I do believe that for nurses who wish to advance their practice should go for their BSN and MSN. Nursing specific courses take up 2 years of a 4 year Bachelor's. ADN's do 2 years of nursing specific classes. Looking at my area, the new grad RN makes the same amount of money whether he/she holds a diploma, an ADN, or a BSN. The diploma grads are one of the more highly regarded and seem to find jobs quickly because they spend more time in clinical practice and are oriented in a shorter amount of time, so there's where the cost savings lies. Considering the diploma program has a 100% NCLEX pass rate and the BSN from the local major universities are at 89% (with a comparable number of graduates each year) and so poor that they're under consent decree from the board (with a few more graduates) respectively, I can understand the NM logic in hiring those that some deem "less desirable" based on their degree status. 100+ years of experience educating nurses must make a prepared diploma grad.

I will be pursuing my BSN, so I'm not discrediting the BSN nurses. Just saying they are no better than any other new nurse when they start practicing. It's the person, not the degree.

LPNnowRN · Jun 30, 2011

Back to the original post...why is nursing experiencing no shortage at the present time compared to other health care practitioners? My 2 cents is that it is the economy. At least in rural Wisconsin, many people have lost their insurance. They make too much for Medicaid. They only go to the doctor when they can't stand it any more. Less patients, less jobs. Poor Medicare reimbursement rates for hospitals and LTC. And yes, I know a few experienced nurses who lost retirement funds in the depression we just went through, and have to work. Or their spouse lost their job and now instead of part time they are full time. Yes, there are many many new grads in my area, but if there was more patient volume, that would be a good thing! Too many new grads from ADN programs (shudder!) of which I am one, LOL, are only part of the problem. This is a multifactorial problem.

vlk70lpn2RN · Jun 30, 2011

more questions than answers in these posts. myself, i went to lpn school at the local technical/vocational college-went at night took 2 years, while working full-time during the day. i already had a diploma in business/office tech. then took all my core and prerequisites (at the community college) over the course of a year, while still working full time but then as an lpn in ltc. finished my core and went through a regular adn program-didn't bridge-my schedule and the bridge schedule didn't work out for me to still work. anyway, got my adn in may, had job set up 3 days before graduation. i passed my nclex/state boards last week.

yes, i have a lot yet to learn. yes, i respect the extra education that bsn nurses receive. however, if i had personally had no other choice than a bsn program from start to finish; i would not be in nursing today. it just would not have been financially responsible of me to quit my job to go to school full time, and then live on student loans for 4 years. it was difficult enough on my family for me to go the route i did, while working full time or as close to full time as i could. i am proud to be an rn. i was proud to be an lpn. i was proud to be a secretary/clerical person. i guess what i am saying is be proud of your accomplishments, but do not be in a hurry to stop someone else from reaching for their dreams. by the way, my new job offers incentives and financial assistance to lpn and rn wanting to further their education. so in 2 years when i am ready, they will help pay for my bsn. and the new job, it is in icu- they no longer allow lpns to work in critical care areas as nurses, only rns. :twocents: :nurse:

melmarie23, MSN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

its rather unfortunate that this thread has turned into yet another ADN v. BSN debate-about who and who does not make a better nurse. IMO, its not about that at all, but rather how to build up our profession from that of a vocation to something that can be seen as equal (though different in its own respect obviously) from the other medical professions. That is the whole premise behind about suggesting a standardized entry into the field.

in response to the above poster, I think its great that your employer will be paying for you to continue on and receive your BSN. However, many hospitals due to their own financial constraints in today's rough economy, have eliminated these benefits to their employees. It would be nice that this option was extended across the board. That said, I also think its extremely telling that they are willing to foot the bill for this. They value that education. That they WANT and encourage their nurses pursue a higher degree.

~Mi Vida Loca~RN, ASN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

its rather unfortunate that this thread has turned into yet another ADN v. BSN debate-about who and who does not make a better nurse. IMO, its not about that at all, but rather how to build up our profession from that of a vocation to something that can be seen as equal (though different in its own respect obviously) from the other medical professions. That is the whole premise behind about suggesting a standardized entry into the field.
in response to the above poster, I think its great that your employer will be paying for you to continue on and receive your BSN. However, many hospitals due to their own financial constraints in today's rough economy, have eliminated these benefits to their employees. It would be nice that this option was extended across the board. That said, I also think its extremely telling that they are willing to foot the bill for this. They value that education. That they WANT and encourage their nurses pursue a higher degree.

The thing that has impressed me the most about my new employer is how much they value education. Not only do they have a really great tuition assistance program ( a very generous one at that) they have past loan assistance. They provide free of cost the access to the CEU and all the CEU's (not sure if this is standard but the way I heard it being talked about today a few new employees were really impressed they pay for this). They have extensive online education tools and classes in person and online free to employees that count as college credits. They come up with education goals that you set and they help you to achieve them.

They also take health very seriously and provide wonderful health screenings (that won't count against you, like biometrics screening) and tools all free. In fact if you do the biometrics screening you get a 50 dollar gift card and they set you up with a plan to get healthier. Free gym membership and so forth and so on. I just am in awe that in this economy this company has decided to invest more money into their employees because the way they see it a happy employee makes for a happy patient experience.

wooh, BSN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

I think it would be nice if we could value education without it seeming like an insult to someone with less education.

If my "dream" was to be a physical therapist, the lords of PT wouldn't decide that I could do that with an associates degree. Yes, it sucks that some people can't become a PT or pharmacist or MD because it takes more school than they can afford or are willing to attend. But they keep that standard because life just isn't fair.

My proposal would be to require a BSN from here on out. If you already are an RN, fine. If you aren't an RN, then you're going to have to get a BSN to become one. Not because all of you RNs from community colleges and diploma programs are stupid or incapable or whatever insult you feel is coming from my saying that we should standardize to the BSN. But because as long as we make it "easy" (compared to other healthcare professionals) to become a nurse, we're not going to get the respect and monetary compensation we deserve. It's pure supply and demand. The supply is big enough that hospitals can chew us up, spit us out, get another shiny new grad, and repeat. We slow down the supply, they'll have to take better care of us since we won't be disposable anymore. That helps ALL nurses, even the ones that were lucky enough to get their RN license with an associates degree.

KimberlyRN89, BSN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

A hospital-based diploma program is totally different than an ADN, so how could that have been the point?

They can also sit for the NCLEX-RN (or PN) though. That's the point. What Linda pointed out (which I bolded in my last post), is that there is still another entry into practice(although diploma programs are very limited, they are still existent). I don't have anything against diploma nurses, ADN or BSN nurses. When I visited the ER in the past, I don't recall asking(or caring!) the nurse treating me what kind of degree they had. However, there's a BIG problem in this field. PT's & OT's have standard entry into practice, and I believe the nursing field needs it too:twocents:

~Mi Vida Loca~RN, ASN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

I think it would be nice if we could value education without it seeming like an insult to someone with less education.
If my "dream" was to be a physical therapist, the lords of PT wouldn't decide that I could do that with an associates degree. Yes, it sucks that some people can't become a PT or pharmacist or MD because it takes more school than they can afford or are willing to attend. But they keep that standard because life just isn't fair.
My proposal would be to require a BSN from here on out. If you already are an RN, fine. If you aren't an RN, then you're going to have to get a BSN to become one. Not because all of you RNs from community colleges and diploma programs are stupid or incapable or whatever insult you feel is coming from my saying that we should standardize to the BSN. But because as long as we make it "easy" (compared to other healthcare professionals) to become a nurse, we're not going to get the respect and monetary compensation we deserve. It's pure supply and demand. The supply is big enough that hospitals can chew us up, spit us out, get another shiny new grad, and repeat. We slow down the supply, they'll have to take better care of us since we won't be disposable anymore. That helps ALL nurses, even the ones that were lucky enough to get their RN license with an associates degree.

You know what would be a step in the right direction I think at least on the school level, the same standards set for the schools. I see variances of difficulty and grading scales and classes and lengths and so on. If the boards are a set standard across the country, I would think the schools should be as well. It's something that frustrated me to no end. Even if colleges alone not just nursing had a standard grading system across the board that made grades transfer in the same. Or standard classes that transferred in the same. Anyway, I just never understood this. I know it's a bit off topic. But it's very frustrating for those that do continue education.

RN-BSN for example. (real example for local school in my area)

Local BSN has a regular grading scale.

Local ASN has a stricter grading scale.

84% at ASN is a C which =2.0

84% at the BSN is a B which =3.0

(this isn't even account for the school that uses + and - and that 84% might be a 2.5)

So student at ASN school doesn't meet the let's say 2.5 minimum GPA needed for the RN-BSN program. By all rights if they were on this same BSN grading scale for the classes they took, they would have a 3.0. But there aren't standards across the board thus making it more difficult for this ASN student to further their education. Same for graduate school

Now if some nursing programs want to enforce a stricter grading scale for their nursing program to set higher standards I can certainly understand and agree with this. But it would seem that once the student passes those standards, the official final transcript should regret the college wide standard grading scale so when the student decides to pursue their education their GPA is reflected accurately since the new college isn't going to say (what was your grading scale for the nursing program and how does that transfer into the grading scale we use).

Not sure if this makes sense. But it's an issue I see happen often. Also when a student at school A) receives a 3.6 in their college but school B) doesn't grade like that so their 3.6 transfers over to a 3.0 thus dropping their GPA.

Anyway, just a few examples of yet another problem I see with the whole education thing.

It's frustrating when I see students or nurses blowing off a students concerns saying "oh don't stress, C=Degree" Well no it doesn't when you are looking at further education.

I mean quiet honestly, if it wasn't other things that factored into me going for my associates first, I would have rather done the local BSN. They had a more lenient grading scale and it's rare anyone doesn't pass their program. We had 18 out of 50 that didn't pass ours. So the odds of obtaining the degree would have been better for the BSN (here that is). I am sure the students that failed with a 76.4% felt the same way since that still would have been passing in the BSN program and they just spent 3 years on a wait list and all their time and money to invest into nursing school and not pass for their associates but they would have for their bachelors.

Again, only speaking for my area programs. I have no idea how other schools run because there is no set of standards.

cherrybreeze, ADN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

i think it would be nice if we could value education without it seeming like an insult to someone with less education.
if my "dream" was to be a physical therapist, the lords of pt wouldn't decide that i could do that with an associates degree. it's very different to make that comparison, because it wasn't ever an option to do that with an associate's degree..no one is currently asking for "special treatment" by way of getting an adn, which would be the case in this scenario. yes, it sucks that some people can't become a pt or pharmacist or md because it takes more school than they can afford or are willing to attend. but they keep that standard because life just isn't fair.
my proposal would be to require a bsn from here on out. if you already are an rn, fine. if you aren't an rn, then you're going to have to get a bsn to become one. not because all of you rns from community colleges and diploma programs are stupid or incapable or whatever insult you feel is coming from my saying that we should standardize to the bsn. but because as long as we make it "easy" (compared to other healthcare professionals) to become a nurse, we're not going to get the respect and monetary compensation we deserve. it's pure supply and demand. the supply is big enough that hospitals can chew us up, spit us out, get another shiny new grad, and repeat. we slow down the supply, they'll have to take better care of us since we won't be disposable anymore. that helps all nurses, even the ones that were lucky enough to get their rn license with an associates degree. lucky enough?? and yet you just implied that it's "wrong" to get insulted by this argument, but there again is the implication that an associate's degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

they can also sit for the nclex-rn (or pn) though. that's the point. that still doesn't make sense, sorry. what linda pointed out (which i bolded in my last post), is that there is still another entry into practice(although diploma programs are very limited, they are still existent). yes, that's another entry in to practice, but it's not the same one, so it can't be put in the same category. i don't have anything against diploma nurses, adn or bsn nurses. when i visited the er in the past, i don't recall asking(or caring!) the nurse treating me what kind of degree they had. however, there's a big problem in this field. pt's & ot's have standard entry into practice, and i believe the nursing field needs it too:twocents:

:uhoh3:

N.U.R.S.E. · Jun 30, 2011

inorder for me to justify all of this education break it down to me in dollars and cents how much more do each generally ear4n lpn rn bsn msn np. Bcz if u standardize ed t5hen how much will my salary increase over the long hall can anybody answe4r using ball park figures

~Mi Vida Loca~RN, ASN, RN · Jun 30, 2011

inorder for me to justify all of this education break it down to me in dollars and cents how much more do each generally ear4n lpn rn bsn msn np. Bcz if u standardize ed t5hen how much will my salary increase over the long hall can anybody answe4r using ball park figures

I have no idea what you are asking?

OhioCCRN, MSN, NP · Jun 30, 2011

'even the ones that were lucky enough to get their RN license with an associates degree.'

I find this quote extremely condescending!

I do not consider it 'lucky' to get a license with an ADN i consider it 'intelligence and hard work'