Is it just nurses or........

[BABYJADE06]

I read the posts on this site often and I always seem to see threads related to nurses not being able to obtain jobs. My question is whether or not nurses are the only major HEALTH profession facing this issue. The reason why I asked is because I have friends who have graduated pharmacy school and all of them were able to obtain jobs. As a matter of fact, they all had multiple job offers. Also, my neighbor's daughter graduated school and is an occupational therapist and she said that she and all of the others who graduated as occupational therapists from her school were also able to obtain jobs w/o any issues. So, in healthcare is it just nurses who are having a hard time finding employment? If so, what makes it easier for a pharmacist, occupational therapist or any other health profession to get a job? I mean after all, we all experienced the same recession right?

[Cuezee2]

I still believe that nursing should go to a Bachelors Degree as entry into practice, LPN/LVN, should go to an Associates Degree, and Nurses Aides/Assistants program should be a year.

Physical Therapy ASSISTANTS, have a two year Associates Degree as entry into practice. A RECREATIONAL THERAPIST, has a four year Bachelors Degree as entry into practice.

Increasing the educational requirements would drastically reduce the number of applicants to nursing programs. They should also do away with the popular, second degree nursing programs.

There are no "second degree" medical schools for physicians assistants, dental asistants, for dental school, or paralegals for law school. These programs are adding to the glut of nurses in the community fighting for jobs.

The mission of the PTB, has for year, been to keep nurses, "barefoot and pregnant" (sorry guys!). In other words, they have worked to keep nurses powerless, and until recently, it has worked.

Right to work states, and anti union states in the south and mid west, are seeing nurses unionizing and winning big contracts with worker protections. They are losing their control and their cash cows.

We need to counter this, by reducing the number of nurses entering the profession, and by increasing unions in hospitals. No other profession needs unions the way nurses do. There is strength in numbers. PTs, OTs, SLPs, Pharmacists, keep their number down by increasing their educational levels.

Spare me the anti union,"I can speak for myself, I don't need a union to negotiate for me, I don't like unions, they are un professional" blah ,blah blah! There is nothing professional about being overworked underpaid, treated like crap, and have no job protection at all.

If that were the case then nursing would be in a lot better shape than it is now. Not unionzing is the worst thing that has happened to nurses. There is strength in numbers- you don't have that by yourself.

Teachers all have at least a Bachelors degree as entry into practice, and most if not all earn graduate degrees after they enter the professsion. Most nurses have barely an Associates Degree. Teachers are almost univerally unionized! The retire with full medical benefits, a pension they can live comfortably on. Most nurses don't have any pension, and retire with NO medical benefits, nada.

Who is non professional now? Folks, call the NNOC, and get the ball rolling. I just got the magazine from the CNA, and the NNOC just won big contracts in some very anti union states.

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN ,CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW

Very well stated.

[CP1983, BSN, RN, APRN, NP]

[i"]You believe all RN's should have a BSN, so why get rid of ABSN programs? It's not a "fast-track" as much as it is a second bachelors. I had a bachelors already, and then wanted one in nursing. That is what a ABSN is for. Before my nursing program started I had all the general studies courses from my first BS and took the required prereqs that I didn't happen to complete the first time in college (like micro, psych, etc). I don't have any less education then anyone in a traditional nursing program has, or less clinical hours.

And yes, for someone who has a bachelors and/or relevant experience in a field (like science) already, there are programs that let you take some classes, student teach, and get a teaching license."[/i]

I agree. I have a BS in dietetics. Sorry guys- but much more difficult than the BSN. Requires far more science: 1 year general chem with lab (not survey), 1/2 year organic chem, biochem, nutrition biochem, general bio with lab, microbio with lab, cell bio with lab, gross anatomy with cadaver dissection, advanced physiology with lab (these are not combined A&P courses), food science with lab, clinicals, and research component, in addition to basic nutrition and and clinical theory, community nutrition, food service, and general education. That second bachelor's in nursing of which I am already overqualified to begin, is a piece of cake.

See my earlier post. This is not about education but outsourcing.

I just feel that with nursing, it's alitle easier to become a nurse and the schooling is less rigourous, especially for ADN. Not trying to say it's less than a BSN but technically it's easier. I mean like you said, "that second bachelor's in nursing of which I am already overqualififed to begin, is a peice of cake."

Wth the nursing field, it should be a traditional path. Not saying that you have to "retake certain pre-reqs" again since you have them already but I really do feel that if the entry to become a nurse is harder, it will definitely "weed" out the people who aren't serious, focused or who really don't have a passion for nursing. I am not trying to offend anyone here on this board but I have spoken to some of my classmates who mentoned that they are in it for the mualah and it was the easiest career path for them. See? I still want my field to respected and because it's "easy" like people mentoned, it makes people respect the field less. My little sister is going to be in med school and she agrees with what I say plus had way more to add. She said the req for med school are crazy but you know, she was serious about being a doctor and she did what she had to do. She had known about ten people who wanted to be an MD and all of them except for her change their minds because the requirements were strict and they were in it for the wrong reasons.

Those are one of my several reasons why they should make it harder and do away with any "alternative" paths of nursing. Like someone mentioned on the board, they don't make it easier for any other careers. And I am sure there are shortages in many fields. My old HS friend changed her field (to become a social worker), she didn't have to retake all her pre-reqs but she didn't take an alternative path either, she was a transfer student and it took her two years to get her MSW. (she had her BA in PA-pubic administration).

Not trying to offend you or anything but it's really hard. I remember when the police shortage was a BIG deal and they were trying to recruit students from two year colleges and some 4 year colleges, statng that you can become a police officer in less than a year and all the perks you can get. My cousin was a PO and she was saying that they you can retire in 5 to 6 years with an excellent pension, you will have a excellent salary and other great benefits that she remember when EVERYONE wanted to be an officer. And then they changed all of that because it was too many people trying to enter because it was just that easy. I don't know what the criteria is now but I am sure it changed a bit.

But all I am syaing is that, if they really control the surplus of new grads and make the requirements strigent, I think the future of nursing will have a positve outcome in regards to jobs and all.

Interesting,

[Just a Dose]

Considering BS programs differ from AS programs mainly by BASICS unrelated to nursing, I'm not sure what the propaganda is - other than being well rounded? Making BS a required minimum would decrease entry because of cost rather than intellect. RN to BSN should be a 6 month ordeal after acceptance... not the extra year.

I also don't understand the disdain toward 2nd degree programs. There are at lease 1 years of prerequisites ... and then it takes 18 months in the program, with no breaks and a very heavy course load. First Degree Nursing programs take 24 months after acceptance.

I believe having second degree nurses in the field with increase respect for nurses. One of the differences being, that they have usually been in other professions, and know how they should be treated. Also, they have other knowledge that can be use in an extended field to improve nursing. Second degree nurses may not be competing for staffing after a few years of experience.

If you want to improve intellect for nursing practice there are certifications, for which ever field you happen to be in. I don't believe making a BS will raise pay grade. These certs should be recognize with a pay increase.

Minimum entry/ required education hasn't created a low ceiling for Information Systems (I used to make software, ect). You don't HAVE to have a degree in Computer Science or related fields to be in information systems. You will usually see 'equivalent experience considered'. Money in this field is about certifications and experience or a higher level of management, travel, or unpaid overtime/salaries. Low level of entry is a problem in this field in other ways, especially for a new grad with student loans competing with a rogue.

Also, there are Certificates for Teaching, for someone with a bachelors that take only 9 wks. Teacher are not paid especially well, but taking into account there summer break, even with the in services, it still more than the average nurse.

Truely the biggest factor in salaries is supply vs demand... demand for nursing school is high cuz the job is advertized well. Govt faces huge challanges ahead for Medical Care... and it's in there best interst to flood the market, and keep wages low.

What we as individuals and unions have more control over is better working conditions/ safer practice. I still hate hearing "that's just part of floor nursing". Each of us each individuals must refusing the high patient loads or quick and high turn over.

I've only been in nursing for 1.5 years now, and I'm beginning to wonder when my hourly is going to increase. Or when being put on call, and not called in, will have some pay associated with it. I like a 3 day/week schedule and less commute associated with it. The relative flexibility, and the still relatively high job security compare to other fields. It all has it's compromises.

[NurseHopefulInOH]

Pharmacists in my area also have problems finding jobs as new grads. Just thought I would add :)

[Psychtrish39, BSN, RN]

I still believe that nursing should go to a Bachelors Degree as entry into practice, LPN/LVN, should go to an Associates Degree, and Nurses Aides/Assistants program should be a year.

Physical Therapy ASSISTANTS, have a two year Associates Degree as entry into practice. A RECREATIONAL THERAPIST, has a four year Bachelors Degree as entry into practice.

Increasing the educational requirements would drastically reduce the number of applicants to nursing programs. They should also do away with the popular, second degree nursing programs.

There are no "second degree" medical schools for physicians assistants, dental asistants, for dental school, or paralegals for law school. These programs are adding to the glut of nurses in the community fighting for jobs.

The mission of the PTB, has for year, been to keep nurses, "barefoot and pregnant" (sorry guys!). In other words, they have worked to keep nurses powerless, and until recently, it has worked.

Right to work states, and anti union states in the south and mid west, are seeing nurses unionizing and winning big contracts with worker protections. They are losing their control and their cash cows.

We need to counter this, by reducing the number of nurses entering the profession, and by increasing unions in hospitals. No other profession needs unions the way nurses do. There is strength in numbers. PTs, OTs, SLPs, Pharmacists, keep their number down by increasing their educational levels.

Spare me the anti union,"I can speak for myself, I don't need a union to negotiate for me, I don't like unions, they are un professional" blah ,blah blah! There is nothing professional about being overworked underpaid, treated like crap, and have no job protection at all.

If that were the case then nursing would be in a lot better shape than it is now. Not unionzing is the worst thing that has happened to nurses. There is strength in numbers- you don't have that by yourself.

Teachers all have at least a Bachelors degree as entry into practice, and most if not all earn graduate degrees after they enter the professsion. Most nurses have barely an Associates Degree. Teachers are almost univerally unionized! The retire with full medical benefits, a pension they can live comfortably on. Most nurses don't have any pension, and retire with NO medical benefits, nada.

Who is non professional now? Folks, call the NNOC, and get the ball rolling. I just got the magazine from the CNA, and the NNOC just won big contracts in some very anti union states.

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN ,CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW

With all due respect how does a RN barely have an Associates Degree ? In my community college our nursing degree was an Associate of Science in Nursing and was the only transferable degree other than the Pre -Engineering degree there. I am at the end of obtaining my BSN and agree there needs to be a standard of some kind in our field. However, many times in interviews the DNS or manager doesnt have a BSN either and asks me why I am getting mine . I think to myself only in nursing would I be asked this. I find it insulting because to further your education in any field is a must .

I do think unions would help nursing and I also think that nurses because most of us needing a job will take on horrible ratios for that reason we are not respected and a nurse can be stretched further for the dollar. I know I work with alot of physical therapy assistants and occupational therapy assistants and they don't respect nurses and they think they can tell you how to do your nursing job. It may be because they do have more education than some nurses but it may be due to the fact that are more desirable to facilities and make the facilities more money as a rehab type facility, the fact is that I have ran into this attitude by them since I have been a nurse both in acute care and LTC . I have spoke with a few about it too.

I do agree nurses need to quit fighting among each other and unionize and hospitals and LTC and etc. would sit up and listen. By the way I live in the Pacific Northwest also and what is funny is the PTs , OTs, and CNAs in LTC here in many facilities are unionized but the nurses are not and that is insane.

I asked a co -worker recently why this was so and she said the nurses thought unions would make them lose their jobs . It is a fear thing but Linda you are totally right about how nurses dont have retirement and no medical benefits. I am working part time due to health reasons and I have no insurance and this employer wanted me to work full time hours but no benefits because corporate was told I was hired part time. I feel so powerless. We do the hardest of jobs and most of us love being nurses but there is no respect.

[KimberlyRN89, BSN, RN]

With all due respect how does a RN barely have an Associates Degree ?

There are still quite a few hospital based diploma programs left in the United States (I know of some in PA, DE, and VA). I think that was the point Linda was trying to make.

[Psychtrish39, BSN, RN]

There are still quite a few hospital based diploma programs left in the United States (I know of some in PA, DE, and VA). I think that was the point Linda was trying to make.

Point taken, I had no idea any even existed anymore. I have lived in most areas of the country but not in the East. Do you know if nurses in diploma programs are able to obtain jobs ? I had thought they were all phased out over the years . Thank you for the information.

[KimberlyRN89, BSN, RN]

Point taken, I had no idea any even existed anymore. I have lived in most areas of the country but not in the East. Do you know if nurses in diploma programs are able to obtain jobs ? I had thought they were all phased out over the years . Thank you for the information.

Now that I'm not too sure of. But I would like to think that since the majority of them are hospital based, that as soon as they were finished with school they could easily gain employment at that facility. But again, I'm not sure.

[Psychtrish39, BSN, RN]

I kind of did some research on them and while my ASN degree in Nursing I got alot of clinical time it would have been great to have more. I wish in the state where I was living at time of my ASN degree that had been an option.

[cherrybreeze, ADN, RN]

There are still quite a few hospital based diploma programs left in the United States (I know of some in PA, DE, and VA). I think that was the point Linda was trying to make.

A hospital-based diploma program is totally different than an ADN, so how could that have been the point?

[Katie5]

How does a nurse "barely" have an Associate's Degree? You either have one, or you don't.

. I chuckled at that.

[scrubcircrn]

I get so irritated over the whole associate vs bachelor nurse issue. First off at least in Illinois they both take the same NCLEX test. At many facilities they work side by side on the floors or in surgery at the same pay. IF you wish to go into management or further your education to advanced practice nursing then by all means get your bachelors degree to start off. In my case I went to nursing school at 45 and had no desire to go on with an advanced degree. I did retail management for many many years and I am quite content to be a nurse with an associates degree and very proud of it. All you associate or diploma nurses be very proud!