Is it just nurses or........

[BABYJADE06]

I read the posts on this site often and I always seem to see threads related to nurses not being able to obtain jobs. My question is whether or not nurses are the only major HEALTH profession facing this issue. The reason why I asked is because I have friends who have graduated pharmacy school and all of them were able to obtain jobs. As a matter of fact, they all had multiple job offers. Also, my neighbor's daughter graduated school and is an occupational therapist and she said that she and all of the others who graduated as occupational therapists from her school were also able to obtain jobs w/o any issues. So, in healthcare is it just nurses who are having a hard time finding employment? If so, what makes it easier for a pharmacist, occupational therapist or any other health profession to get a job? I mean after all, we all experienced the same recession right?

[ktliz]

Here's what a BSN CAN'T get you, if you don't already have them: common sense, people skills, leadership, and aptitude, to name some.

If the nursing profession can come up with an educational model that teaches these things, we will have truly earned the honor of being the most respected profession in the world!

I think my biggest issue is that nursing does not receive the respect and recognition it deserves. Many people--including some nurses, themselves--see nursing as a "vocation," when it can and should be so much more. Administrators view nursing as an expense, and respond by cutting positions and increasing patient:nurse ratios, while at the same time seeking to hire the biggest, baddest docs to draw clients. Picture the billboard with hot-shot Dr. Soandso's picture, that states "The best [insert specialty] care in [insert geographical area] is at XYZ Hospital." Have you ever seen a billboard boasting the best nursing care in the area? Never mind the fact that a patient could have an amazing physician, but a task-oriented nurse who fails to see the big picture. How much is that patient's care going to suffer? It could be little, or it could be a whole heck of a lot. The problem is, no one in the public understands that.

It's not about the ADN vs. BSN debate. It's about the profession vs. vocation debate. If we truly want nursing to be--and be seen as--a profession, we need to standardize our education. Period.

[N.U.R.S.E.]

news flash people calling all sensible people on deck every nurse knows that we are overworked and underpaid upper management refuses to hire more staff u don't see the bigger picture leave ed requirements alone managements refusal to hire more to increase profit. Margin I work ltc and 30 pts to 1 nurse is to many even in hosp nurses c/o hi pt count its more than enough work out there for everyone we just need to pressure management to hire more nursing staff and for all these ex degrees how much salary are u earning over lpn. Rn bsn msn on the floor. Show me the money and follow the money with all these degrees do u lea4n anymore skills bcz the boards are the same

[kalevra, BSN, RN]

Can you be specific about what point in time this was the case?

On another note:

Here's what a BSN CAN'T get you, if you don't already have them: common sense, people skills, leadership, and aptitude, to name some. These are hugely important qualities that you either have, or you don't. Would you hire a BSN that is socially stunted, cannot effectively communicate, and can't critically think their way out of a paper bag, or a ADN who is the opposite of that? (I've worked with some seriously clueless nurses of either degree, so it apparently IS possible to get through college and become licensed in spite of it). I'm not saying that those situations can't be reversed mind you, I want to mention that before someone jumps on me to point it out. I'm just (again, sigh) saying that a degree isn't the end-all, therefore increasing the entry-level degree isn't the answer.

I am not sure why I continue to try to make the point, people generally remain fully in their corners (and yes, I am doing it too, I'll admit it) so debate is futile.

You know your right I cant find data saying all RNs were Bachelores Degree educated at one point in time, I was told by an MSN as I was asking her about her future role as a nurse educator and her thoughts on nursing education. I admit I was wrong. Guess there was no point in time at all sorry.

As for the debate of lets have "BSN" or "ADN" be entry level for RN well it doesn't really matter. If people want BSN to be the standard thats fine with me, if people want ADN to be the standard thats fine with me too. The reason is because no one can get a consensus what RN entry should be. So why stress over something that wont happen...ever... in my life time anyway. Some people say in the future this or that event will happen, I don't think anything will happen to change entry level education for RN. When the day comes that ALL RN programs in the U.S go to BSN I would most likely be dead, and if it happens in my life time I will be the first to say I was wrong.

I agree the degree isnt the end all. You can have a book smart 4.0 BSN or ADN and both can fail miserably when faced with angry relatives, or directing others, or commanding a group of people older than them, etc etc.

But im more worried about future NPs going to DNP just to practice what decades worth of other NPs have been able to do . I really do not see why the change to DNP. Who would want to push the education to DNP in the first place? I really dont think its the RNs going into their NP programs that want even more years of school pilled on top of the masters they already need get. I mean isnt a masters degree enough, its not like your some fresh out school new-grad with zero real world acute experience. Most RNs going for their NP have a few years under their belt learning the ropes, and fin- tuning their critical thinking skills. All those years spent in ICU, PACU, Peds, etc usually comes with some wisdom and knowledge.

This is everyone reading this.... Why change to a Doctorate Degree for Nurse Practitioner?

[kalevra, BSN, RN]

If we truly want nursing to be--and be seen as--a profession, we need to standardize our education. Period.

Easier said than done my friend.

[kalevra, BSN, RN]

news flash people calling all sensible people on deck every nurse knows that we are overworked and underpaid upper management refuses to hire more staff u don't see the bigger picture leave ed requirements alone managements refusal to hire more to increase profit. Margin I work ltc and 30 pts to 1 nurse is to many even in hosp nurses c/o hi pt count its more than enough work out there for everyone we just need to pressure management to hire more nursing staff and for all these ex degrees how much salary are u earning over lpn.

Well what if legislation is passed where patient to nurse ratio is set like in California. Legislation passed was called California A.B 394-Staffing Bill ( http://nursetraveler.org/CA-np-ratio.html ) sets how many pts a nurse can have in certain settings. What if similar legislation is passed where it covers other facilities like LTC, then managment would have to get off their high horse. If they don't well that's just non-compliance and I wonder what would the state do to those facilities. Most likely a heavy fine or shut down. Such legislation would force hiring of new nurses in order for the LTC to operate lawfully.

There is a precedence for such a legislation why not make another push to cover other facilities, I am sure that would be sufficient pressure to get management to budge and hire more people. Keep in mind it would be a hard drawn out battle.

[nursel56]

. . .But im more worried about future NPs going to DNP just to practice what decades worth of other NPs have been able to do . I really do not see why the change to DNP. Who would want to push the education to DNP in the first place? I really dont think its the RNs going into their NP programs that want even more years of school pilled on top of the masters they already need get. I mean isnt a masters degree enough, its not like your some fresh out school new-grad with zero real world acute experience.

This is everyone reading this.... Why change to a Doctorate Degree for Nurse Practitioner?

It could be that they want a "D" in their title:

Nursing is moving in the direction of other health professions in the transition to the DNP. Medicine (MD), Dentistry (DDS), Pharmacy (PharmD), Psychology (PsyD), Physical Therapy (DPT), and Audiology (AudD) all offer practice doctorates.--AACN

As to the "why" question it seems to be pretty vague on specifics except for the point they make that people with a Master's plus specialty certifications are equivalent to the education of the MD, but does not at this point in time get credit toward a particular degree, which is a big reason nurses aren't seen as professionals.

They wanted to differentiate the PhD from the DNP in that the former works in academia and the latter works out with the population and is well versed in practice-based outcomes and competencies. :)

Most RNs going for their NP have a few years under their belt learning the ropes, and fin- tuning their critical thinking skills. All those years spent in ICU, PACU, Peds, etc usually comes with some wisdom and knowledge.

That is what the true meaning of "nurse practitioner" was but there is a strong trend these days to want to skip through school and put in a quick stint in ICU to get their ticket punched. I always feel a little sad when I read posts "don't want to be a nurse- want to be an NP (or CRNA)".

For a more definitive answer to that I have a link to the "playbook" on the DNP from it's genesis. It's very detailed.

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/pdf/Essentials.pdf

[KalipsoRed]

The hiring issue for the recession has got a few parts to it for nurses:

a) We went into a recession, thus people are out of work. The shortage didn't go away. More experienced nurses who had left the profession came back because they needed money.

b) Hospital's increased nurse to patient ratios to cut costs.

c) Most new grads probably could find some sort of employment, however they would have to be willing to move, or go into a type of nursing they didn't see themselves doing.

Nursing is still the quickest way into a higher paying medical profession, and even though we are in a recession nurses are still in high demand.

Pharmacy and OT are in high demand, but those medical professions take quite a bit more education than a nursing degree. There are already people who can hardly make it through a 4 year degree, much less the extra 2 to 4 years it takes to become an occupational therapist or a pharmacist. The max for a registered nurse would be 4 years. It just makes sense that there are more nurses than the other two professions and thus a bit more job compitition in the nursing field than pharmacy or OT.

[janetrnc]

I think some of the probem is with new grads wanting a day shift job, no weekends, no holidays, etc..., I een had a new grad inquire about MY job as a nurse manager! I agree that some shifts suck but patients need us 24/7 365.

[holisticallyminded]

I'm not sure that education is the issues, as some have stated. It is SOOOOOOO damn easy to get a bachelor's degree and not many are weeded out in the process since programs are so available and loans may still be had.

The issue is outsourcing. Bringing in foreign nurses due to the "nursing shortage" and denying american-educated nurses jobs because there are then no spots needing filling.

I am sorry for all that this is happening. Foreign nurses are paid less to begin with and I'm sure they become tired of the resentment received by american-educated nurses. I know they work hard and just want better lives, etc. We need to start holding our governments accountable. They want immigration at a time when it isn't sustainable.

[CP1983, BSN, RN, APRN, NP]

First let me say I am a pretty new RN, with a BSN. I work with many experienced ADN nurses and even a few diploma nurses. They are 10 times the nurse I am right now and I count on them and learn from them everyday.

And I know some new grad ADN nurses who are very bright and are just as good if not better then me.

However, if I was hiring a new grad in any profession and had to choose between two people with every other variable being equal I would choose the one with more education. Someone with more education is more LIKELY (it certainly doesn't always work out in such a way) to have a broader perspective on the world, the way a business (such as a hospital) is run, be able to relate to a wider variety of people, keep themselves healthy, continue to enhance their education, etc. They are more likely to help keep the business going forward and improving and help in solving problems outide their immediate job duties.

As a nurse, why wouldn't you want your profession to be more educated? Especially if you believe too many nurses are being churned out.

And the NCLEX??? Not to pick on you because I know others have said the same, but passing the NCLEX does not make everyone equal. Passing it sure doesn't mean you are going to be a good nurse, and failing it doesn't mean you won't be a good nurse (unless you never pass of course).

I agree. I am a ADN nursing student actually but I have a Bachelor's in HR, already. I think being in school alittle bit more allows the individual to enhance their education and perspective in the world. And to the response of why nurses cant get jobs, I definitely feel that there is an extremely high surplus of nurses and they need to put a cap on their requirements. People can master getting A's in their pre-reqs and next thing, you know, they are in the program (that's how I got in). I mean, they just need to make it harder; (letters of recommendation, essay, entrance exams, volunteer hours)

I was actually checking out a couple of requirements for an OT and saw that two schools in NYC required applicants to put in volunteer hours before theyapply to the program. Requirements like that will definitely "control" the high level number of applicants from applying.

Is there really a nursing shortage? I believe there is but I just feel that because of the recession, the closing of hospitals (especially in NYC), the hiring of foreign nurses to work in the US, the high recruitment/training costs for new grad nurses and hospitals wanting to hire BSN nurses is making things worse for us (ADN nurses) and it's sad. And also, too, it would be nice if you know a nurse manager to get your foot in the door. I seen way too many times and was bold enough to ask a couple of nurses how did they get their jobs (when I volunteered at two hospitals while going to school). So, maybe it wouldn't hurt to be more open-mnded about relocating. When I graduate, I am definitely planning to apply to all 50 states, :). I heart NYC and I know my husband and other family members are optimistic for me but I am just being real. I know it's going to be really tough finding a hospital to hire me so I am going to be open about relocation, at least.

[CP1983, BSN, RN, APRN, NP]

Pharmacists in the U.S have an 8 year degree. So even if you did the pre-reqs of nursing taking 2 years, the pharmacist is still doing their pre-reqs for their BS degree. Pharmacy Tech is like a year and a half, two different positions.

I think so many nurses are having a hard time getting a job is because of over production. The ADN program can take as little as 2 years to make an RN. Yes it is possible to knock out pre-reqs while still in high school because you can enroll in the community college system while taking regular H.S classes. Once you graduated H.S you have all pre-reqs knocked out and can apply for the nursing program RN. California has this available to kids that do not want to go through the traditional route for getting college transfer units. Nurses are built relatively quickly versus a Pharmacist which requires a Doctorate degree or an occupational therapist that requires a Masters Degree. Market is flooded now Management can be picky.

You are right!!

[holisticallyminded]

[i"]You believe all RN's should have a BSN, so why get rid of ABSN programs? It's not a "fast-track" as much as it is a second bachelors. I had a bachelors already, and then wanted one in nursing. That is what a ABSN is for. Before my nursing program started I had all the general studies courses from my first BS and took the required prereqs that I didn't happen to complete the first time in college (like micro, psych, etc). I don't have any less education then anyone in a traditional nursing program has, or less clinical hours.

And yes, for someone who has a bachelors and/or relevant experience in a field (like science) already, there are programs that let you take some classes, student teach, and get a teaching license."[/i]

I agree. I have a BS in dietetics. Sorry guys- but much more difficult than the BSN. Requires far more science: 1 year general chem with lab (not survey), 1/2 year organic chem, biochem, nutrition biochem, general bio with lab, microbio with lab, cell bio with lab, gross anatomy with cadaver dissection, advanced physiology with lab (these are not combined A&P courses), food science with lab, clinicals, and research component, in addition to basic nutrition and and clinical theory, community nutrition, food service, and general education. That second bachelor's in nursing of which I am already overqualified to begin, is a piece of cake.

See my earlier post. This is not about education but outsourcing.