Is it fianally time to retire NETY?

[hppygr8ful]

I have been hearing the tale about NETY the older nurse who takes great joy in making new nursesfeel so bad that many leave the profession after an encounter with her. For the record I have never been bullied during my career especially when I was starting out. I had great preceptors who were always willing to teach me and show me interesting things.

I my own experience as I have gotten older I find that so-called collateral violence seems to occur more often from younger nurses towards older nurses. We have all encountered a new, fresh out of school nurse who thinks they know it all and has nothing to learn from those of us who fall into the crusty old bat category. They are jaded before they even start!

One observation that I have seen in the past few years is that we as a culture have raised a generation of people who are offended by just about everything. It used to be if someone had a difference of opinion with you it was just that - we shrugged our shoulders and moved on. Now we feel compelled to tell others how offended and bullied we are for being different.

In my career I have encountered a few rather unpleasant personalities. Sometimes they have done/said things that were not very nice but It has never risen to the height of actual bullying mainly because I confront such behavior. Being in recovery has taught me a lot about letting go of fear and resentment. In one case a rather jerky nurse said out loud in the nurse's station " I heard your a drunk! Is that true?" I could have chosen to walk away but instead I just looked at him and said "That's drunk in recovery to you - I'll be happy to talk to you later in private if you want." Turned on my heel and went about my duties.

I don't let things fester and stew - I don't have enough room in my head to let other people rent space there. In fact I often don't think of work at all when I am not there.

So can't we just retire NETY and move on with the knowledge that there are jerks everywhere.

Peace and Namaste

Hppy

[OrganizedChaos, LVN]

I think the term "workplace incivility" is much more accurate in describing the bad behavior sometimes exhibited by nurses new and seasoned. Even "lateral violence" is far too dramatic for most of what we hear about.

Exactly. That's why I questioned the percentage KatieMI quoted. What one person believes is bullying another person might not (ala the bullying petition thread).

[Susie2310]

Lateral violence is a more appropriate term than "NETY". Because old nurses are not the only ones who "bully". If we retired the term "NETY" & used the term lateral violence it would take the spotlight off experienced nurses & that shows them in a degrading light.

I don't think it is any more appropriate to take the NETY spotlight off genuine situations of older experienced nurses bullying younger inexperienced nurses than I think it is appropriate to take the spotlight off any other bullying demographics i.e. physician-nurse bullying. What is important is to recognize the bullying problem by bringing it out into the open where it can be identified and dealt with, not to obscure the problem by lumping all the bullying demographics together under the term "lateral violence" or "vertical violence." The categories are helpful in identifying who is doing the bullying.

[OrganizedChaos, LVN]

I don't think it is any more appropriate to take the NETY spotlight off genuine situations of older experienced nurses bullying younger inexperienced nurses than I think it is appropriate to take the spotlight off any other bullying demographics i.e. physician-nurse bullying. What is important is to recognize the bullying problem by bringing it out into the open where it can be identified and dealt with, not to obscure the problem by lumping all the bullying demographics together under the term "lateral violence" or "vertical violence." The categories are helpful in identifying who is doing the bullying.

But why? All it is, is a buzz word that people like to use. Bullying is bullying & it shouldn't have a special name. Why give it a special name & put a spotlight on it? Harassment, bullying & everything under that umbrella is terrible, so why pick one out & put it on a pedestal?

So what is it called if the new nurse is bullying the experienced nurse? Why do we need names for these special types of harassment & since when? Why can't we just say Person A is harassing Person B regardless of experience? Why does experience matter when it comes to bullying?

Why is it limited only to nursing? Do you hear of doctors eating their young (DETY), pharmacists eating their young (PETY), respiratory therapists eating their young (RTETY) or anyone else? It's petty. It makes nurses seem immature & dramatic. Not only that but drama & bullying occurs everywhere, not just in nursing. So why encourage this "NETY" nonsense to go on???

[amzyRN]

It is easy to come from a place of strength and proclaim that all one needs to do is to stand up to bullies in order to avoid or circumvent being bullied, but to people who are less able to stand up for themselves who actually need other people's help defending themself from a bully this advice has limited value. I think we all know we are supposed to be able to stand up to bullies; the difficulty for some is being able to do so. And in situations where an individual is being bullied by more than one person it is all the more difficult to do this. There is often an imbalance in power - bullying is often conducted by people with more power (for example, seniority) than their victim, and this is another reason that their victims shouldn't be expected to deal with the situation of the person bullying them by themself.

How can we as nurses be patient advocates if we don't stand up for ourselves. It's like not calling a rude doctor because something is wrong with the patient. I think it's challenging to stand up and refuse to accept disrespect, but is often necessary. It used to be very difficult for me to stand up to physicians, but I made myself do it for patients and if I can advocate for patients, I can advocate for myself. Advocating for respect for yourself does not have to be this big deal and can be done very respectfully and is a skill that is learned by practice.

Additionally, not taking small slights personally is also a skill, like accepting criticism. Another poster mentioned that there is a difference between a strict preceptor who might not be warm and fuzzy who wants their student to succeed versus someone who is trying to make their student fail. I had a really strict preceptor who was not very "nice" but she was helpful and wanted me to succeed and so she pushed me. At times I wanted to cry because it was so hard. She was one of the best nurses clinically that I have ever worked with. I learned a lot from her and I am a better nurse from the experience. My point is that there is a difference between strictness, straight forward communication, not being warm and fuzzy and blatant disrespectful undermining behavior which creates a hostile work environment.

[nutella, MSN, RN]

I think it is important to name what is not ok in our profession.

Even though I was never the victim of NETY when I was a new nurse and I think it is a horrible thing to do to new nurses, I have seen it around me in different places I worked at. My experience is that when there is NETY there is also often a tendency to lateral violence towards nurses new to the unit or floor even though they are not "young." In fact, I left a very prestigious position some years ago because of how the "older" (meaning working there for more than a couple of years or so) nurses treated new nurses.

I also agree only partial that the generation that comes out of nursing school now is overly sensitive. I think that in the US where everything is about "me, me , me" and were autonomy is regarded as the highest value, it is a logically consequence that younger generations define their needs and themselves differently. The babyboomers who were all about work, work loyalty, work until you drop dead for the greater good of nursing are retiring and the 20 + y olds are interested in a different work - life balance, plus they are better prepared in terms of knowledge than any generation before.

But what they struggle with it is resilience and coping with this chaos that you encounter in healthcare on a daily basis.

I am a parent of one college student and one highschool senior - both of them are not "delicate little sensitive flowers." But I am also not a parent who is helicoptering and solves all their problems. And I would never call the college to debate of my child's grades in college - but apparently parents these days are over involved and continue to be over involved throughout college - it is so bad that they have special "classes" for parent of new college students where they are being educated that paying for college is ok but otherwise the students have to be grown ups and get their stuff done ...

I had no idea that it is so bad until I went to the new parent of a college student thing. Parent ask questions like "how can I get my son into this and this program" and the college person is like "well - actually if your son has an interest, he will go and talk to the professor about it." but that is not good enough so the parent asks " can I call the professor to tell him that my son is interested?" --- really ?????

So - I think when people complain about the "delicate sensitive flowers" they often forget that a whole generation was also parented in some way....

Anyhow, we need to teach them strategies to deal with chaos, develop resilience, support them and help them to succeed.

[Wuzzie]

I think it is important to name what is not ok in our profession.

Even though I was never the victim of NETY when I was a new nurse and I think it is a horrible thing to do to new nurses, I have seen it around me in different places I worked at.

It's a horrible thing to do to ANY nurse. It does not matter their age, experience or how long they've worked in a particular job. It isn't any more difficult for new nurses than it is for seasoned ones. The focus should NOT be on one demographic but on the problem as a whole.

[OrganizedChaos, LVN]

I think it is important to name what is not ok in our profession.

Even though I was never the victim of NETY when I was a new nurse and I think it is a horrible thing to do to new nurses, I have seen it around me in different places I worked at. My experience is that when there is NETY there is also often a tendency to lateral violence towards nurses new to the unit or floor even though they are not "young." In fact, I left a very prestigious position some years ago because of how the "older" (meaning working there for more than a couple of years or so) nurses treated new nurses.

I also agree only partial that the generation that comes out of nursing school now is overly sensitive. I think that in the US where everything is about "me, me , me" and were autonomy is regarded as the highest value, it is a logically consequence that younger generations define their needs and themselves differently. The babyboomers who were all about work, work loyalty, work until you drop dead for the greater good of nursing are retiring and the 20 + y olds are interested in a different work - life balance, plus they are better prepared in terms of knowledge than any generation before.

But what they struggle with it is resilience and coping with this chaos that you encounter in healthcare on a daily basis.

I am a parent of one college student and one highschool senior - both of them are not "delicate little sensitive flowers." But I am also not a parent who is helicoptering and solves all their problems. And I would never call the college to debate of my child's grades in college - but apparently parents these days are over involved and continue to be over involved throughout college - it is so bad that they have special "classes" for parent of new college students where they are being educated that paying for college is ok but otherwise the students have to be grown ups and get their stuff done ...

I had no idea that it is so bad until I went to the new parent of a college student thing. Parent ask questions like "how can I get my son into this and this program" and the college person is like "well - actually if your son has an interest, he will go and talk to the professor about it." but that is not good enough so the parent asks " can I call the professor to tell him that my son is interested?" --- really ?????

So - I think when people complain about the "delicate sensitive flowers" they often forget that a whole generation was also parented in some way....

Anyhow, we need to teach them strategies to deal with chaos, develop resilience, support them and help them to succeed.

I think what it comes down to is the new generations of nurses need to not be so babied & coddled. What they might think of as being bullied, we might just shrug off & laugh at. I know there are serious issues of harassment but coworkers also need to learn how to communicate better. I believe if we got rid of the hot topic buzz word of "NETY" then new nurses wouldn't go into their first job expecting to get bullied. I didn't know of "NETY" so I didn't think everyone was out to get me & I think that's why it's so prevalent. The new grads hear it, they know of a friend of a friend who experienced it, so they go into their first job looking for a bully whether it's there or not. If we get rid of this "NETY" nonsense then the new grads might have a smoother orientation, might get along better with everyone on the floor & would definitely not have a reason to have their guard up.

There will *always* be bullies, unfortunately. But by getting rid of the "NETY" bs I would hope it would cut down on unnecessary drama.

[OrganizedChaos, LVN]

It's a horrible thing to do to ANY nurse. It does not matter their age, experience or how long they've worked in a particular job. It isn't any more difficult for new nurses than it is for seasoned ones. The focus should NOT be on one demographic but on the problem as a whole.

Preach! Why is there such a big focus on new grads when new grads aren't the only ones who get bullied? But why should it matter how much experience you have? Being harassed is terrible & we should combat the situation as a whole & not just focus on one aspect of it.

Oh those poor new grads, they can't defend themselves. Why not? Are they not adults? Can they not speak for themselves? Unless a minor somehow, miraculously, got a job as a nurse then I don't see how it matters if the nurse that is being harassed is 18, 38 or 58 years old. Has 0 years of experience, 15, or 35. They are all adults & can all defend/speak for themselves.

[Jedrnurse, BSN, RN]

One of my favorite mantras: "Get a grip, get a life, and get over it!" Particularly useful when someone pulls out the idea of "nurse as wounded healer". Talk about formalizing the sense of victim status...

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

I agree that NETY is often wrongly applied and that these misapplications are often cited as evidence that bullying of newer nurses by more experienced nurses is not really a problem of any magnitude. And while some people appear to cry NETY for situations that do not really appear to constitute bullying, i.e. a deliberate pattern of behavior designed to hurt/undermine another person, other people factually report details of being on the receiving end of actual repeated behavior (verbal or actions) that appears to be meant to weaken/injure them. So I don't see any reason to retire NETY, because NETY exists in reality. Furthermore, the ANA has recognized bullying as a workplace problem.

It is easy to come from a place of strength and proclaim that all one needs to do is to stand up to bullies in order to avoid or circumvent being bullied, but to people who are less able to stand up for themselves who actually need other people's help defending themself from a bully this advice has limited value. I think we all know we are supposed to be able to stand up to bullies; the difficulty for some is being able to do so. And in situations where an individual is being bullied by more than one person it is all the more difficult to do this. There is often an imbalance in power - bullying is often conducted by people with more power (for example, seniority) than their victim, and this is another reason that their victims shouldn't be expected to deal with the situation of the person bullying them by themself.

NETY means "Nurses eat their young." The great majority of what is claimed to be "NETY" is merely incivility or even well-deserved negative feedback. Bullying, which does exist but not to the extent claimed, seems to be just as likely to from the "young" toward the senior nurse. (Claiming falsely to be bullied by one's preceptor just to deflect legitimate negative feedback is in fact bullying.) Therefore, I think it's way PAST time to let go of NETY.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

It's a horrible thing to do to ANY nurse. It does not matter their age, experience or how long they've worked in a particular job. It isn't any more difficult for new nurses than it is for seasoned ones. The focus should NOT be on one demographic but on the problem as a whole.

THIS! The focus should not be on one demographic but on the problem as a whole. The two bullies I've encountered in forty years of nursing did not limit their bullying to new nurses. In fact, they often recruited brand new nurses to bully more experienced nurses.

Bullies are expert at sniffing out "victims". But but the bullies can be brand new grads or even, in one case I've experienced peripherally, a senior nursing student out to "get" the nurse who devoted a whole semester to precepting her through her senior practicum because she didn't agree with the evaluation she got. The preceptor WASN'T a good teacher -- it was her first time precepting -- but she took it seriously, tried really hard and gave a fair and honest evaluation based on her experiences with the student. I was following the situation very closely -- precepting the preceptor. In the end, half of the precepting team had to have a meeting with the brand new preceptor and the student and the clinical instructor in which the student told blatant lies in an attempt to "wreck that (female dog)'s career." (Her words, not mine.) How do I know they were lies? Because I was hovering out of sight but within earshot when some of the "incidents" took place -- precepting the preceptor. Other members of the precepting team observed other of the interactions described. I don't think the student was expecting the precepting TEAM.

I believe the student failed the clinical, but I don't really know what happened to her. I do know she was a budding bully.

[DTWriter]

Like how the "ok" hand gesture was the sign for "f#@% you" and now the "ok" sign, and how the rainbow was once just a symbol of luck and now associated with gay pride:

There is no need to retire the acronym "NETY;" just modify it:

Nurses

Engage

Their

Young

Side note: What was the agreement about buzzword threads, huh?