First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.
There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.
I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.
I think the hospitals are more worried about keeping a steady stream of cheap labor than anything else.
I think the hospitals know they can pay the BSN the same salaries as ADN's. A more highly educated staff for the same nickel? What's not to love about that?
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
The argument that liberal arts education improves critical thinking (itself) is empty at worst and simply academic at best, without any true bearing on nursing.
Outcomes studies are the only thing that matters on a global scale. If critical thinking is important it will be demonstrated in outcomes not just abstract studies.
*** _IF_ liberal education improved critical thinking then I think the modern ADN grads would have it over the first degree BSNs hands down. I haven't precepted an ADN student who didn't already have an undergrad, and in some cases a graduate degree, in years. Per my contact person at the community college better than half their students already hold at least a bachelors degree.
I think the hospitals are more worried about keeping a steady stream of cheap labor than anything else.
Sorry to break this to you but that is what nursing for most of it's professional history has been about.
Until rather recently educated women had three main choices for a career; the convent, nursing or teaching. For those lacking educational skills there were the countless "pink collar ghetto" jobs such as shop clerks, waitresses, telephone operators, secretaries and other office work. All including nursing depended upon a steady supply of females. As those who married and or otherwise left, they were replaced with fresh recruits.
Wages for any of those professions/jobs were low because it was women that filled them and the prevailing wisdom was that either women shouldn't work, those that did only did so during the gap between high school or college and marriage when they would retire to the only *true* career for a nice decent girl/woman; marriage and motherhood.
Females put up with this because of rampant discrimination which lead to few other employment choices. Look what happened to the nursing profession after Title IX and other equal rights laws. Where once young girls where shut out of the science and other classes needed for pre-med, if not med school all together (and often coaxed/steered into nursing), they were free to now do so.
I think the nursing leaders would have declared BSN entry the law of the land if they could have. The problem is that each state has separate scope of practice laws, and education requirements to ensure safe and competent care is delivered to the public.
The impetus for BSN entry came from only one of many stakeholders. not through public or employer demand. To me it makes the patient outcome debate even more destructive. If every single nurse agreed on BSN entry it would not guarantee it would happen. You might think if hospitals really believed their mortality and failure-to-rescue rates were as alarmingly different as some suggest based on ADN vs BSN they'd refrain from obstructing it's path in the state legislatures, but they did just that.
Okay. Since each individual state has different scopes of practice, why is it so difficult to have a national nursing conference with of all state boards of nursing number 1 head honcho in charge with the major Nursing organizations that are recommending changes that have been instituted by hospitals (ie. magnet status) to come together every 2-4 years to get some level of uniformity in place. It's no wonder hospitals and nursing home corporations treat Nurses like crap and put patients at risk for their bottom line. We can't get anything settled because of in-fighting and inconsistency.
So I have been perusing AN the past couple days.....several threads by new grad nurses ( I think most claim BSN) who state that they have applied to hundreds of jobs and are desperate to get anything. Or have worked LTC because that is all they could find and are now having an even harder time getting into acute care. They seem to be in more populated, desire able areas, California, N.Y., ect.
However, a ADN grad out in the boonies of AZ claims she and her classmates all immediately got hired into their choice of position.
The advice given to the 1st group is generally to go to rural, under served locales to get their experience, which living in such an area, I can tell you that many are, in fact, doing so. Once they get their 1 year experience - they go back home. Most I have come into contact with are ADN did get hired back in California acute care.
And all these AZ ADNs need to do is enroll in an online BSN program while gaining their acute exp - in 1-2 yrs they are golden and much farther ahead in their career than the BSN's still looking for employment in their respective locale.
It is baffling. and why aren't our "nurse leaders" who are telling us to get BSN doing something about it?
So I have been perusing AN the past couple days.....several threads by new grad nurses ( I think most claim BSN) who state that they have applied to hundreds of jobs and are desperate to get anything. Or have worked LTC because that is all they could find and are now having an even harder time getting into acute care. They seem to be in more populated, desire able areas, California, N.Y., ect.
However, a ADN grad out in the boonies of AZ claims she and her classmates all immediately got hired into their choice of position.
The advice given to the 1st group is generally to go to rural, under served locales to get their experience, which living in such an area, I can tell you that many are, in fact, doing so. Once they get their 1 year experience - they go back home. Most I have come into contact with are ADN did get hired back in California acute care.
And all these AZ ADNs need to do is enroll in an online BSN program while gaining their acute exp - in 1-2 yrs they are golden and much farther ahead in their career than the BSN's still looking for employment in their respective locale.
It is baffling. and why aren't our "nurse leaders" who are telling us to get BSN doing something about it?
No offence meant, but it is very difficult to judge either posts from new grads seeking employment and or the motives behind nurse recruiters and or others doing the hiring. We just do not have enough information from either to put together an unbiased decision.
What is more than clear is for much of the USA hospitals have moved away from the warm body approach to hiring. Merely having a RN license, GPA at or >3.0 (especially in nursing and science classes), and so forth is really the floor in most areas that many new grads meet. The next level then becomes what does each individual new grad bring to the table to convince those in charge of hiring to take them on.
Just as Goldman Sachs does not owe every MBA that applies employment, merely having a RN license in many areas of the country no longer means you can show up on Friday and automatically start working the following Monday. Just as in the "real" world applicants have to "sell themselves" to the person or persons doing the hiring to show why they should be chosen.
Even in NYC if you read the boards ADN grads are being hired by hospitals. It may not be all and the numbers may be small, but they are being taken on. True they may also have a finite time period to get their BSN as well.
Posters on this forum involved in hiring be they charge nurses, administrators or management have indicated IIRC what they look for in new hires. One feels they also know what/who has worked out in the past and build on that. Equally after a few disasters anyone doing hiring knows what hasn't worked and builds on that in making decisions.
our Adn or bsns start as new grads at 32 dollars an hour base pay.............That is what the competitive wage is our area. our social workers with a minimum of a masters start at 25 dollars and hour. i don't think its as simple to say were based on an education level but i certainly understand your sentiment. i sadly think were not going to see and increase for bsn nurses............but a decrease for ADN nurses.
Specializes in Medical Surgical/Addiction/Mental Health.
The three major hospitals systems where I live have laid off nurses. So, you have experienced ADN and BSN nurses applying along with new grad ADN and BSN nurses. I have told students several times that they need to go where the jobs are located. Rural hospitals are hiring. Some have a difficult time attracting candidates. So, I don't think it matters whether the person is ADN or BSN.
I agree. There needs to be an entry point. However, suppose the decision is made to require all nurses to have BSN's. Do you suppose then that the nurse educators from the ADN programs would flock to the universities to teach? I think so. Shutting down ADN programs will open more clinical sites for BSN programs. What do you think a university would do with more clinical spots and educators? BSN programs will begin cranking out more nurses in an already flooded market because they will then have the resources to do so. I think to help with the overabundance of nurses; nurse should be offered loan forgiveness for signing a contract to work in rural communities for a certain time period. The government is currently doing that for MD's PA's, and NP's.
The topic is complex and there are a lot of good ideas.
The three major hospitals systems where I live have laid off nurses. So, you have experienced ADN and BSN nurses applying along with new grad ADN and BSN nurses. I have told students several times that they need to go where the jobs are located. Rural hospitals are hiring. Some have a difficult time attracting candidates. So, I don’t think it matters whether the person is ADN or BSN.
I agree. There needs to be an entry point. However, suppose the decision is made to require all nurses to have BSN’s. Do you suppose then that the nurse educators from the ADN programs would flock to the universities to teach? I think so. Shutting down ADN programs will open more clinical sites for BSN programs. What do you think a university would do with more clinical spots and educators? BSN programs will begin cranking out more nurses in an already flooded market because they will then have the resources to do so. I think to help with the overabundance of nurses; nurse should be offered loan forgiveness for signing a contract to work in rural communities for a certain time period. The government is currently doing that for MD’s PA’s, and NP’s.
The topic is complex and there are a lot of good ideas.
As I recall there are already several loan forgiveness programs for RNs who work in "under served" areas.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
Okay. Since each individual state has different scopes of practice, why is it so difficult to have a national nursing conference with of all state boards of nursing number 1 head honcho in charge with the major Nursing organizations that are recommending changes that have been instituted by hospitals (ie. magnet status) to come together every 2-4 years to get some level of uniformity in place. It's no wonder hospitals and nursing home corporations treat Nurses like crap and put patients at risk for their bottom line. We can't get anything settled because of in-fighting and inconsistency.
You're right. The only thing I can point to as a hopeful sign is that all state BONs managed to switch from their individual licensing exams (what we called "state boards" way back when) and agree on the NCLEX-RN and PN. I am not well-versed on how that success was achieved but that roadmap would be a great place to start.
I believe experience is the great equalizer...I've worked along side LPNs who are more knowledgeable and competent than any RN simply because they have years of experience. Critical thinking skills are sharpened and honed over time and with experience, no matter what level degree you have. I've debated over the past few years about going back to school to get my BSN. But then I decide, why would I spend $15,000+ to write tons of papers and do group projects for the next 18 months and get nothing in return? I think I'll wait until my employer tells me I have to before going back and I might not then..I might go work in a Dr's office...weekends off, no holidays, less stress...wait, that sounds pretty good right now!
Guttercat, ASN, RN
1,353 Posts
I think the hospitals know they can pay the BSN the same salaries as ADN's. A more highly educated staff for the same nickel? What's not to love about that?