First, I do not want to challenge nurses with several years of clinical experience that are ADN or diploma trained nurses or those nurses that graduated recently with a ADN, and I do not want to challenge anyone by saying that there is a difference between the ADN versus the BSN prepared nurse.
There is a push for all nurses to be BSN prepared or for ADNs to achieve their BSN; however, there is no increase in wages for the majority of those with their BSN or those going from an ADN to a BSN. I find that as a workforce, we do not understand our worth. Why do we need the BSN as it costs more and it has no pay benefits. Students that have an ADN from a community college have less student loans, and they make the same a student that has a BSN; however, the BSN student has increased student debt with no increased monetary income to show for their degree.
I challenge the nursing workforce to acknowledge our value as a profession, and demand an increase in pay if we are to have a BSN. The current yearly income of a nurse is based on the costs of an ADN level of education; however, it does not match the cost of a BSN cost of education. If I am required or it is preferred that I have my BSN, I need to be paid accordingly. I do not practice nursing strictly for the income, but I do appreciate putting a dollar value on the work I do.
No offence meant but it is very difficult to judge either posts from new grads seeking employment and or the motives behind nurse recruiters and or others doing the hiring. We just do not have enough information from either to put together an unbiased decision. What is more than clear is for much of the USA hospitals have moved away from the warm body approach to hiring. Merely having a RN license, GPA at or >3.0 (especially in nursing and science classes), and so forth is really the floor in most areas that many new grads meet. The next level then becomes what does each individual new grad bring to the table to convince those in charge of hiring to take them on. Just as Goldman Sachs does not owe every MBA that applies employment, merely having a RN license in many areas of the country no longer means you can show up on Friday and automatically start working the following Monday. Just as in the "real" world applicants have to "sell themselves" to the person or persons doing the hiring to show why they should be chosen. Even in NYC if you read the boards ADN grads are being hired by hospitals. It may not be all and the numbers may be small, but they are being taken on. True they may also have a finite time period to get their BSN as well. Posters on this forum involved in hiring be they charge nurses, administrators or management have indicated IIRC what they look for in new hires. One feels they also know what/who has worked out in the past and build on that. Equally after a few disasters anyone doing hiring knows what hasn't worked and builds on that in making decisions.[/quote']
Thereby you are saying that hiring managers look past the ADN vs BSN? Although knowing what one is looking for varies and can be any ones guess.
I live in a "under served" rural area. There are fewer applicants so there is a better chance the nurse may have the "upper hand" in getting into desired position. I don't know of any loan forgiveness programs - I'd be interested to know what they are. It is also more of a problem of retaining experienced staff - new grads just use then as a place to get experience and move on. Also rural healthcare is kind of a different cup of tea than the big hospitals.
Specializes in Peds/outpatient FP,derm,allergy/private duty.
It wasn't sirI it was me........using my kids damn "smart technology"......
Oh well.....defecation occurs...
:)
If it helps at all... even the great ones are susceptible.. Steve Martin tweet "Without auto-correct I am Nottingham," :-D /heading back to topic now . . .
Thereby you are saying that hiring managers look past the ADN vs BSN? Although knowing what one is looking for varies and can be any ones guess.
I live in a "under served" rural area. There are fewer applicants so there is a better chance the nurse may have the "upper hand" in getting into desired position. I don't know of any loan forgiveness programs - I'd be interested to know what they are. It is also more of a problem of retaining experienced staff - new grads just use then as a place to get experience and move on. Also rural healthcare is kind of a different cup of tea than the big hospitals.
Hiring managers do not operate in a vacuum. Most often they take their marching orders if not cues from the DON or "Senior Vice President of Nursing Services" or whatever such persons are called in an facility/hospital system.
There are places that scream "BSN preferred/only" have no problem hiring an ADN if she is enrolled in a bridge program or is willing to abide by a time frame for completing one after hire. Does this happen often? No, probably not, but again it depends upon what the hiring manager/team *sees*.
As for nurse student loan forgiveness; Google is your friend.
This is what I have never understood. We as a collective group of professionals no matter what title you possess behind your name, can never agree on what is an acceptable "entry-level" of practice. The major Nursing organizations , the REAL POWER PLAYERS, either refuse to, or just don't know how set the "standard;" if they did, we wouldn't be beating this dead horse who refuses to die. And further more, how can "they" be the "leaders" of our profession if they can't agree amongst themselves and have the nerve to attempt to "lead" and set "standard" for us? It's a fair question.
If entry into practice is going to be the BSN, JUST DO IT ALREADY! Force the local community and technical colleges to offer ONLY BSN programs along with the 4 year universities because it is THE SET STANDARD AND ANYTHING LESS WON'T RECOGNIZED (in terms of RN education); and then there will be nothing to "debate" about.
It's pure foolishness for ADN AND BSN prepared Nurses to argue amongst each other about who is the "most valuable" and how having a BSN Floor Nurse is better than having a ADN Floor Nurse and having "studies" to prove it. HOW WOULD THE PATIENT KNOW WHO HAD A BSN OR ADN if they weren't told? It's all about the care you deliver and how well you treat people while you're on duty. There are crappy LPN'S, ADN'S, BSN'S, AND MSN'S giving care to patient's all over the country; WE ALL KNOW ONE OR HAVE WORKED WITH ONE! And as far as money goes imo, ALL ENTRY LEVEL RN'S SHOULD BE PAID THE SAME. The more experience you have, the more you will be compensated for that experience. When you become a Manager or APRN, YOU WILL MAKE MORE MONEY! Nuff said!
Problem is that just as with the Tea Party in Congress "power players" in nursing often are beholden to how things are playing out on the ground locally.
Unlike say physicians and the AMA, professional nurses and or those seeking to enter the profession have various ideas about things should be run, especially when it comes to the BSN for mandatory entry. You see this in the fact >50 years since the infamous ANA white paper on the subject there is still considerable debate on the matter. That and the mere mention of such a scheme causes some to start spitting teeth.
Like it or not there is still a sizable number in the profession at all levels who see nursing for what it has mostly always been: an "appliance" or such profession for women that they can pick up and put down as conditions in their lives require. If you increase the educational mandate for entry it will deprive no small number of future nurses a fast path into entry so they can begin to earn money.
That last bit is the main nub of things. Nurses by and large are employed by hospitals and similar facilities thus are labour. Physicians OTOH are a true independent profession and as such it's members and leaders tend to see things in a different way.
Nursing "leaders" in each state are vastly out powered in both rank and influence by physicians and hospital/healthcare system owners. Because a majority of the profession is not on the same page it is very easy for groups outside to run interference. All they have to do is get with other players in the healthcare market such as unions.
Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Unlike say physicians and the AMA, professional nurses and or those seeking to enter the profession have various ideas about things should be run, especially when it comes to the BSN for mandatory entry. You see this in the fact >50 years since the infamous ANA white paper on the subject there is still considerable debate on the matter. That and the mere mention of such a scheme causes some to start spitting teeth.
*** The ANA White Paper seems designed from the start to cause controversy and start fights. Pulling the "RN" title our from under established and successful RNs? Naw, who would get upset about that? Making RNs with BSNs clinical supervisors of mere "Technical Nurses (ADNs) when anyone who actually works as an RN can see their isn't enough difference between them to notice. Certainly NOT the kind of position a reasonable person/organization would take if the REAL goal was to accomplish BSN as the only point of entry to RN practice. To accomplish that we have a variety of successful examples to follow, yet the ANA doesn't support following them. I honestly believe that doing the obvious, that is grandfathering in all ADN and diploma RNs and making a date in the future after which only BSN prepared grads will be able to sit for NCLEX, would have caused much less angst and fighting. All the community college nursing programs would have adapted, as they are doing now, by becoming BSN programs or partnering with a university to offer BSNs.
Personally I don't believe for a second that establishing BSN as the sole path to RN practice was actually their goal in publishing the ANA White Paper.
What seems to be lost in this discussion is that the whole issue is being driven largely by nursing itself, the ANA and others. It is nursing profession leaders and credentialing bodies that are mostly driving the education issues.
These leaders are pushing for more nursing education- without much discussion about BETTER nursing education. We have a 'quantity vs quality' issue going on.
I agree that entry-level nursing should be BSN, at this point at time; however, I believe there should be more emphasis on clinical competencies (esp related to technology) rather than leadership and research. Those should be reserved for the master's level.
Head honchos seem more concerned about nurses gaining power rather than competency. If you were a patient, which would you rather have: a nurse with MORE advanced clinical skills or MORE research and leadership skills?
Nursing should focus on advancing patient care rather than advancing nurses.
Like it or not there is still a sizable number in the profession at all levels who see nursing for what it has mostly always been: an "appliance" or such profession for women that they can pick up and put down as conditions in their lives require. If you increase the educational mandate for entry it will deprive no small number of future nurses a fast path into entry so they can begin to earn money.
That last bit is the main nub of things. Nurses by and large are employed by hospitals and similar facilities thus are labour. Physicians OTOH are a true independent profession and as such it's members and leaders tend to see things in a different way.
Therein lies the rub and the truth: ANA et al. are pushing for the same status as physicians and other 'independent professionals' but only NPs, CRNA's and midwife NP's have that ability and independence (depending on the state nursing act).
Nurses are a valuable part of the medical team but I believe our leaders are pushing boundaries that licensing won't permit.
Nurses are no more an 'appliance' than CNAs, PAs, radiology techs, OT/PT. All members are good and necessary.
I submit that perhaps nursing is looking down its nose at other 'appliances' while aspiring for the status doctors have- which is basically pride and vanity.
I believe we need to value our role, pursue excellence in it and, most importantly, ACCEPT it. It's not that bad and it's not that hard.
. I guess I'm fallible after all.....
.....using my kids damn "smart technology"......
hope3456, ASN, RN
1,263 Posts