macawake, MSN 2,141 Posts Has 15 years experience. Dec 13, 2020 1 hour ago, myoglobin said: Also, we lack data on the long term effectiveness rate for these vaccines. Even most seasonal influenza vaccines are no more than 40-60% effective https://www.CDC.gov/flu/vaccines-work/vaccineeffect.htm and the antigenic drift of Covid seems if anything higher. Your link explains why the efficacy rate is comparably low for flu vaccines. Despite that, they still prevent a significant amount of morbidity and mortality. Both Pfizer’s and Moderna’s Covid vaccines have much higher efficacy rates than the seasonal flu shots have so I don’t really understand how they relate? I’ve seen no evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 virus has higher antigenic shift than the various flu strains that cause seasonal influenza. Do you have any scientific sources that says it does? Your Medium link does as you mentioned say that the virus has a low mutation rate. They’ve identified 68 strains and it says at the very end that only ONE of them (D614G) is clinically significant. And it also says that this mutation does NOT make the virus more resistant to antibodies. This is good news when it comes to what kind of efficacy we can expect from a vaccine.
myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN 1,453 Posts Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro. Has 15 years experience. Dec 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, macawake said: Your link explains why the efficacy rate is comparably low for flu vaccines. Despite that, they still prevent a significant amount of morbidity and mortality. Both Pfizer’s and Moderna’s Covid vaccines have much higher efficacy rates than the seasonal fly shots have so I don’t really understand how they relate? I’ve seen no evidence that the SARS-CoV-2 virus has higher antigenic shift than the various flu strains that cause seasonal influenza. Do you have any scientific sources that says it does? I will concede that it appears that I was incorrect vis a vis influenza it does show significant mutation calling in to question regarding long term efficacy. Still, I will concede that point. However, it does nothing to go to my central point is that there are millions who are concerned about being forced to take this vaccination not only due to possible health consequences, but also for what they fear it represents in so far as a centralized, authoritarian government infringing upon our freedoms to live as we choose. There are also many who have profound, sincere religious concerns over what this represents in terms of "end times" scenarios or at least "leading" in that direction.
Cowboyardee 472 Posts Dec 13, 2020 30 minutes ago, myoglobin said: Well here is one article that discusses many different strains https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/many-strains-of-covid-19-are-out-there-but-only-one-is-important-878b1ee1f829 . Although the article suggests a "low" mutation rate it goes on to examine a variety of mutations (of covid) and their characteristics: Compared to the reference Wuhan strain (wild-type or original SARS-CoV-2), their molecular analyses discovered that 68 variants (or strains) with altered biological characteristics (see figure below): 24 variants had lower infectivity: All had a 4- to 100-fold decrease in infectivity, except for two variants (V341I and N331Q+N343Q) with over 100-fold reduction in infectivity. 8 variants had increased infectivity: One variant has the D614G mutation alone, and the other seven have the D614G plus one more mutation. But no difference in infectivity was found between single and combined D614G mutations, which indicates that the D614G mutation alone is responsible for the enhanced infectivity. 9 and 10 variants had increased and decreased sensitivity, respectively, to neutralization by monoclonal antibodies. 5 and 12 variants had increased and decreased sensitivity, respectively, to convalescent sera — the blood component of recovered Covid-19 patients that contain a mix of antibodies, which may or may not be specific to SARS-CoV-2 proteins. Also, you say "none is true". How can you know my religious concerns? I assure you they are valid to me. Also, I provide a link to a UK article concerning possible mandatory vaccination in the UK being required by employers. My point on the health care workers is that this virus is extremely transmittable and that although healthcare workers are at increased risk (due to increased viral load). They are also often younger than the general population and most people under the age of 60 are at relatively low risk of death from this virus. All viruses mutate, including sars-cov-2. I never claimed otherwise. My point was just that, compared to the influenza virus (which has a notoriously high rate of mutation, contributing both to its seasonal nature and the relative ineffectiveness of any given year's vaccine), sars-cov-2 mutates more slowly. This is a good thing. Also, if you look again at the post you're responding to, you'll notice that I did not argue against your religious statements or anything at all except for the specific parts of your post that I quoted. Apologies for any misunderstanding. Finally, people under 60 are certainly at less risk of dying from covid than the elderly are. However, people under 60 in first world nations are still substantially more likely to die of covid than they are of dying from any other infectious disease in the next year or two. Which is to say nothing of the non-lethal-but-still-awful long term consequences to younger people after having covid. I'm not in favor of workplaces mandating use of a drug that hasn't been as thoroughly tested as we would normally demand. But I think it's pretty important not to argue against the vaccine on the basis of factual falsehoods or playing down the risk of covid19 via rhetorical slight of hand. It's a terrible disease. If you understand all that and still don't want to take the vaccine, I support your decision, for whatever that's worth.
macawake, MSN 2,141 Posts Has 15 years experience. Dec 13, 2020 28 minutes ago, myoglobin said: I will concede that it appears that I was incorrect vis a vis influenza it does show significant mutation calling in to question regarding long term efficacy. Still, I will concede that point. However, it does nothing to go to my central point is that there are millions who are concerned about being forced to take this vaccination not only due to possible health consequences, but also for what they fear it represents in so far as a centralized, authoritarian government infringing upon our freedoms to live as we choose. There are also many who have profound, sincere religious concerns over what this represents in terms of "end times" scenarios or at least "leading" in that direction. Personally I don’t think that a Covid vaccine will be mandated in many, if any, democratic countries. I can of course not be certain of that, but that is my guess. If it happens, I suspect it is more likely that it will be individual employers rather than governments. I have to admit, I’m not sure what ”end times scenarios” are exactly, but isn’t a pandemic that has cost many lives, appears to carry the risk of long term sequelae for a portion of those who’ve survived the infection and that has had a very negative impact on the economy also a concern? I don’t think vaccines should be mandated, but I do not personally fear them and will take one of them once approved and when I’ve had the chance to review the relevant data.
myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN 1,453 Posts Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro. Has 15 years experience. Dec 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, macawake said: Personally I don’t think that a Covid vaccine will be mandated in many, if any, democratic countries. I can of course not be certain of that, but that is my guess. If it happens, I suspect it is more likely that it will be individual employers rather than governments. I have to admit, I’m not sure what ”end times scenarios” are exactly, but isn’t a pandemic that has cost many lives, appears to carry the risk of long term sequelae for a portion of those who’ve survived the infection and that has had a very negative impact on the economy also a concern? I don’t think vaccines should be mandated, but I do not personally fear them and will take one of them once approved and when I’ve had the chance to review the relevant data. Well, when I worked as an RN I was given no choice for the flu vaccine. Take the vaccine or not work. It is (we used to have an option to wear a mask during flu season but that was phased out). This was particularly vexing given that family members (who visited) and MD's (who were not employees) were not required to take the vaccine (and about 70% of the MD's that I would ask said that they did not take the flu vaccine. Unscientific, but interesting). Also, from a Christian "end time" scenario many believe that there will be a "one world" order that mandates "taking a mark" in order to "buy or sell goods" (it doesn't say anything about earning money though) and that those who refuse will be persecuted. I hope you are correct about the mandates.
askater112 44 Posts Dec 13, 2020 Front Page In Bold Letters. Pfizer HomePage. The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine has not been approved or licensed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), but has been authorized for emergency use by FDA under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) to prevent Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) for use in individuals 16 years of age and older. The emergency use of this product is only authorized for the duration of the declaration that circumstances exist justifying the authorization of emergency use of the medical product under Section 564(b)(1) of the FD&C Act unless the declaration is terminated or authorization revoked sooner. Please see EUA Fact Sheet at www.cvdvaccine.com.
JadedCPN, BSN, RN 1,476 Posts Specializes in Pediatrics, Pediatric Float, PICU, NICU. Has 17 years experience. Dec 13, 2020 42 minutes ago, myoglobin said: Well, when I worked as an RN I was given no choice for the flu vaccine. Take the vaccine or not work. That is indeed a choice.
Advanced Practice Columnist / Guide juan de la cruz, MSN, RN, NP 9 Articles; 4,338 Posts Specializes in APRN, Adult Critical Care, General Cardiology. Has 31 years experience. Dec 13, 2020 Can someone strong in basic sciences comment? I feel like the messenger RNA technology is what makes this vaccine different. SARS-CoV-2, unlike the seasonal flu, relies on the spike protein to infect the host. Is there a difference in the spike proteins in the various mutations? I have not read that as the case. The role of the messenger RNA vaccine is to "teach" if you will, our own cells to create the spike protein that is unique to the coronavirus, thereby, preventing the SARS-CoV-2 spike to engage our cells. Seems straight out of science fiction but yes, I tend to believe it.
NotMyProblem MSN, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN, RN 2,690 Posts Specializes in Med/Surg, LTACH, LTC, Home Health. Has 37 years experience. Dec 14, 2020 Everyone will have their reasons for acceptance or declination. Mine is purely going to be based on an emotional one. As the only healthcare/frontline worker in the family, I’m going to accept the vaccine because I want to base my recommendations to my children and grandchildren and other family members on personal experience with it. If the worst happens, they’ll surely not take it. But if it works out well, then I’ll be transformed from the sacrificial lamb to the role model who leads by example. Basically, I’m uneasy about the vaccine like many others; but I need to ‘know’ for my children’s sake...if that makes sense....since it’ll be months before they’ll need to make the decision. My job asked for volunteers and after first ignoring the request, I volunteered during the second survey. So, I’m 50+ years old with no health problems or medications. So we’ll see...
myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN 1,453 Posts Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro. Has 15 years experience. Dec 14, 2020 57 minutes ago, JadedCPN said: That is indeed a choice. I suppose that it is "a choice", but considering that most of us rely upon our jobs to feed our families, pay our rent, and our health insurance, it is just shy of give up your religious faith or go to a "reeducation" camp much like the Falun Gong and Uighur Muslims's in China are given (albeit not so drastic, at least not yet). I take from your seemingly casual attitude towards it "being a choice" that many in administration will likely echo your perspective hence my concern that the covid vaccine might become mandatory. Here is a recently peer reviewed study that suggests that vaccinations may have health burdens (as well as benefits) https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/22/8674/htm and at least supports the thesis that individuals should have reasonable choice in the matter. The mere fact that vaccine makers advise women to not become pregnant for at least two months following vaccination creates religious issues https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine-not-safe-for-pregnant-or-breastfeeding-mums-potential-danger-for-fertility . Given that some churches do not condone birth control (the Eastern Orthodox Church for example).
JadedCPN, BSN, RN 1,476 Posts Specializes in Pediatrics, Pediatric Float, PICU, NICU. Has 17 years experience. Dec 14, 2020 @myoglobin my statement wasn’t casual in nature but rather factual and directed only to your statement about not having a choice for the flu vaccine when you did indeed have a choice. That’s all.
myoglobin, ASN, BSN, MSN 1,453 Posts Specializes in ICU, trauma, neuro. Has 15 years experience. Dec 14, 2020 18 minutes ago, JadedCPN said: @myoglobin my statement wasn’t casual in nature but rather factual and directed only to your statement about not having a choice for the flu vaccine when you did indeed have a choice. That’s all. OK, but my point was that a choice of "do this or lose your job" really isn't much of a choice. That is the same sort of choice that led many people (more women than men) to be sexually harassed or exploited for example. There is a disparity of power between the employer and the employee in most cases and a choice that involves not having your job really isn't much of a choice in a nation where many have less than a month's worth of financial resources.
