Universal Deathcare.

[Kyrshamarks]

So those that support Universal Healthcare and how great it is care to explain to us how it was great for Alfie Evans? Hopefully not coming soon to the America near you.

[broughden]

So those that support Universal Healthcare and how great it is care to explain to us how it was great for Alfie Evans? Hopefully not coming soon to the America near you.

The medical team did their jobs.

"Doctors said he had sustained significant brain damage because of a progressive, degenerative condition that had left his brain mostly as water and spinal fluid."

His condition was unrecoverable. All his family was doing was prolonging the burial.

[broughden]

Thank you. Because I can understand why the British government was not willing to throw more money on a hopeless situation. What I can't understand is why the parents were not allowed to take their own child to Italy at the invitation of the Italian government. That part makes no sense.

Because the doctors for Rome flew to London, evaluated the child, conferred with his doctors, recognized they could do nothing for him that wasnt already being done, and went back to Rome. They didnt want him flying to Rome, as they couldnt do anything for him.

[Guest219794]

Obvious and effective troll.

If this thread starts waning, I would recommend inserting Jahi McMath.

[heron, ASN, RN]

Actually, the OP is a long-time member whom I remember from way back - this post is consistent with his stated political views since 2004 when I joined AN. Wrong-headed, in my view, but sincerely held.

[elkpark]

If this thread starts waning, I would recommend inserting Jahi McMath.

(I've been waiting for her to pop up ...)

[Persephone Paige, ADN]

My mom did this stuff with my poor grandma. My grandma was tired and would never have admitted to my mother that she had withheld treatment from herself and waited until there was no hope for a cure. Still, with my mom in power she had coaxed my grandma into having surgery. She survived the surgery but spent the next three days 2nd and 3rd spacing. She looked like a Macy's Day parade balloon by the time they sent her to hospice. In hospice fluid was weeping out of her pores and she was miserable. My mom would not stop. I left at one point because she had the nurses stop the Morphine so she could wake her to ask if she wanted a sandwich. A sandwich?

My mother needed the power removed from her. But, we have nothing in place for that here. As well meaning as family can be, they don't know what they are doing. My poor grandma suffered at the hands of a well meaning family member who didn't want her to go. She was ready to go.

This poor kid couldn't have communicated he was ready to go. How fun can it be on a machine, confined to a hospital room? Would I like it? If I wouldn't like it, why would somebody else think it was a satisfying existence?

[GrumpyRN, NP]

OK, against my better judgement I am going to chip in.

NHS is NOT free, it is free at the point of use. Everyone pays a part of their salary for "National Insurance" this ensures you do not get a medical bill and also can give unemployment/disability/old age pension rights.

The government had nothing to do with this it was a medical decision upheld by the courts see here for a timeline Timeline: key events in the legal battle over Alfie Evans | Society | The Guardian

Their are NO death squads looking to dispatch ill people.

Parents will always try their best for children - I do not blame them one little bit. I do blame the idiots who go by "Dr. Google" and know nothing about a very emotive issue.

NHS is excellent at the life saving stuff but less so at the life enhancing stuff. You can wait for certain treatments - not good but if you want you can always go private or have private health insurance.

USA spends more than twice what the UK spends on health care and has a lower life expectancy.

To sum it all up, yes the NHS has problems but killing children is not one of them. We have a government that does not care about people and wants to dismantle the NHS. We have social media stating nonsense about things that people know nothing about because it is easier to get a reaction.

[Emergent, RN]

Life expectancy in the UK is about 2 years more than the US. So, universal "deathcare" must not be all bad.

The outcry over this reminds me of the Terri Schiavo case, with the right to life extremists exploiting it for publicity. In my opinion it hurts their cause similarly to the pro choicers who advocate for late term abortion.

[OldDude]

OK, against my better judgement I am going to chip in.

NHS is NOT free, it is free at the point of use. Everyone pays a part of their salary for "National Insurance" this ensures you do not get a medical bill and also can give unemployment/disability/old age pension rights.

The government had nothing to do with this it was a medical decision upheld by the courts see here for a timeline Timeline: key events in the legal battle over Alfie Evans | Society | The Guardian

Their are NO death squads looking to dispatch ill people.

Parents will always try their best for children - I do not blame them one little bit. I do blame the idiots who go by "Dr. Google" and know nothing about a very emotive issue.

NHS is excellent at the life saving stuff but less so at the life enhancing stuff. You can wait for certain treatments - not good but if you want you can always go private or have private health insurance.

USA spends more than twice what the UK spends on health care and has a lower life expectancy.

To sum it all up, yes the NHS has problems but killing children is not one of them. We have a government that does not care about people and wants to dismantle the NHS. We have social media stating nonsense about things that people know nothing about because it is easier to get a reaction.

I was hoping you'd offer your perspective, from someone with personal knowledge and experience in the UK. Thanks Grumpy for adding some clarity to an extremely emotional subject.

[DaveICURN]

The issue most people I read is no that of the death of the child, but the forced denial of liberty of the parents. We, as health care providers, have a inside looking out opinion on the situation. Some of our critical care nurses see these occurrences often, just not in the same extreme way. We all have the compassion and understanding of what is best for the patient is allowing the natural passage of the spirit to God's arms.

The real issue I have seen is that the NHS made the decision to discontinue care, without giving the family the ability to contest or attempt the alternatives available to them. I'm not sure how the European system works, but parents have full decision making capabilities in the US. The NHS proved that they can remove the right of parents and families if they deem it necessary and good for the PT. They even denies the family the right to take the child home to die. This violates and interrupts the ability of the family to properly come to terms and cope with the loss of their child. This will breed a resentment and give a platform for them to cry foul on the NHS system.

If the transport of the child for experimental treatment was the main concern, so what? It's what everyone pays for right? so cost is not an issue. The Government themselves invited the family, so not a border issue. Then why wasn't he allowed to go? Why did we not allow any and all options to extend this life to the nth degree? Are we to maintain the moral highground and affirm, "It was the right thing to do!" With a stamped foot and a glower? This does nothing but make us look uncaring and dispassionate in the eyes of the public who revers nurses as the most trusted profession in the Nation. We should instead be on the side of the arbiter of life, not the advocate of death. (Heavy handed statement maybe, but it's what comes to mind."

Also, for those who emphatically state that the decision was made by the judiciary and not by the Government. Who upholds the judgement of the courts? Who directs the guns to enforce the laws? Who orders the treasury to remove the funds from the paycheck of the individual? Its short sighted to say that the Nation Healthcare System and Judicial system have no ties or relations with the UK government. When wondering whose in charge of the decision always ask, "Who has the gun?".

I pray that these parents can find peace following this loss. Despite everything, Alfie is playing at His table. A thought comforting to us all.

[Coffee Nurse, BSN, RN]

The real issue I have seen is that the NHS made the decision to discontinue care, without giving the family the ability to contest or attempt the alternatives available to them. I'm not sure how the European system works, but parents have full decision making capabilities in the US. The NHS proved that they can remove the right of parents and families if they deem it necessary and good for the PT.

Yes. They can. So can medical teams in the US. Compare appealing to the courts for the ability to transfuse a child of Jehovahs Witnesses. Yes, it's an argument in favor of sustaining versus ceasing treatment, but the common theme of acting in the best interests of the child applies.

They even denies the family the right to take the child home to die. This violates and interrupts the ability of the family to properly come to terms and cope with the loss of their child. This will breed a resentment and give a platform for them to cry foul on the NHS system.

None of us is ever likely to know the details of the discussions between the family and the hospital, but it sounded towards the end like they were attempting to reach a place where they could in fact send Alfie home. Charlie Gard was able to be transported to a hospice before being removed from a ventilator, so it's not as if the hospital/system is trying to punish the parents for fighting back.

Why did we not allow any and all options to extend this life to the nth degree?

Read the rest of this thread. Extending life (i.e. breathing, pulse) to the nth degree is not the be-all and end-all of compassionate healthcare.

Also, for those who emphatically state that the decision was made by the judiciary and not by the Government. Who upholds the judgement of the courts? Who directs the guns to enforce the laws? Who orders the treasury to remove the funds from the paycheck of the individual? Its short sighted to say that the Nation Healthcare System and Judicial system have no ties or relations with the UK government. When wondering whose in charge of the decision always ask, "Who has the gun?".

As long as the gun is not pointed at the heads of the justices deciding the case, this point is moot.

[OldDude]

...I pray that these parents can find peace following this loss. Despite everything, Alfie is playing at His table. A thought comforting to us all.

AMEN!!