Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's

[kasey14546]

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings, or by experience.

I think that just as there is a difference in the tasks an RN and LPN can preform, there should also be a difference in what a two year RN can do, in comparison to a RN with a BSN. The 2 year RN should not be in leadeership or management positions since they have not been trained in accredeited colleges for this skill. The BSN has. I'm sure the 2 yers RN's will disagree with me, and 2 years ago I would have disagreed also. However, after being able to compare the two from personal experience, I feel the BSN is more educated for leadership and management. The BSN nurse should be paid more, and should be the starting educational level for these positions.

Most professions have at least a 4 year degree. Nurses need to improve their educational standing to be equal with other professional fields.

[EmeraldNYL, BSN, RN]

Originally posted by l.rae

newccurn.....yes, they DID say it...see above.....what you state in your post is worlds apart from what the above post implies....but l do disagree with you somewhat......NO ONE here disputes education and advancing the professional image of nursing, but BSN brings nothing else to bedside nursing and in MANY instances offers little in the way of compensation save for more opportunity to advance away from the bedside.....and this helps the nursing shortage ...HOW?....and then when the cost of education is driven up and up because further education is required to do the same job we do now......not good.... new RN's and mngt RN's with very limited experience and foresight purport this increased entry level because they are clueless as to bedside nursing. When l complete my BSN...l REFUSE to stay at bedside nursing.....it would be sensless to obtain a higher degree and continue at bedside where l will bring no further skills than l already have and with little or no compensation.....and therefore....bye bye to 22+ experience in nursing.......and this helps the nursing shortage....HOW?....if all nurses are BSN and the hospital admin already knows that nurses actually don't require the further education to perform the skills....do you really think the pay will increase?....No.....they are very greedy when it comes to paying nurses....Nurses already have what it takes to demand to be treated like professionals.....their jobs are absolutely indespensable in health care....health care CANNOT survive without nurses.....if we can't take this vital fact and demand better treatment, a few more initials will not do the job....Reminds me of an old Andy Griffith show....Barny is out of town and Jerry VanDyke plays the clumsy no-confidence dufus family friend. Aunt Bea talks Andy into hiring Jerry to do a few odd jobs around the jail while Barny is gone......What Jerry really wants is a uniform and a badge....this would really make him proud...he really wants that badge. Andy says ok to uniform...but NO BADGE!....while Andy is out on errands...Jerry takes the Badge, pins it on the uniform and off he goes........sees a couple of men fighting and tries to break it up. Needless to say they shove him out of the way and continue their fight while Jerry jumps up and down on the side lines yelling...."hey..l've got a badge...stop it..l've got a badge....guys, look, l've got a badge!".....ya know, this is how l see this whole nursing degree situation....yes a badge is good...but if you don't have what it takes to back it up...it is useless...........l just see a whole lot of inexperienced delusional nurses jumping up and down yelling at administration...."hey...l've got a degree!"...don't get me wrong, the degree and further education is great.....but it won't help our cause till we use the power we already have to advance our profession.......cutting arrogent remarks such as the one quoted above will always serve to deter this goal.........LR

L.rae, when did I ever say that experience WASN'T important or that ADN nurses weren't "good nurses"?? Please don't put words into my mouth. All I said was that I find the additional courses in a BSN program to be beneficial, and I feel that additional education warrants additional financial compensation. If anyone was acting rude or condescending, it was you and fab4fan slinging insults. If you had stated your argument in a less aggressive manner, perhaps I would have been more inclined to listen to what you had to say. Yes, I realize the NCLEX is the same. Yes, I realize that only 10% of what you need to know you learn in school. But I can't help but look at other professions and see how increasing educational requirements has worked for them. Experience is of course important; but I thoroughly disagree with those who say that a degree on the wall is meaningless. But, we obviously aren't going to change each other's minds on this matter.

[Ortho_RN]

I know several of my friends who are BSN students, who are planning on going straight to management type positions.... And do as lil bedside nursing as possible.... That is crap... They shouldn't even be allowed in any type of management positions that fresh out of school.... I am going to get my BSN, but only for when I get tired of bedside nursing 15-20years down the road I will be able to do managament type stuff...

And I am sorry Emerald.. Those liberal crap classes that you take for any major are crap... Who the heck needs art history or music history to make them a "better, well rounded person" NOONE.... Foreign language is about the ONLY one worth anything, and you are not required to take a Foreign language, that is your choice..

If you can tell me how English Literature is going to help me be a better nurse, I am all ears, how bout US history, how bout American Gov't.... Nah, those won't help me be a nurse... or a better person for that matter.... I have taken all those classes plus some.. and all they did was help boost a GPA...

Good Luck on your Education Emerald.... :)

[Q.]

Originally posted by Stargazer

Considering I've already made it clear in this thread that I am in management, should I be taking this slam personally?

I don't have an MSN yet, and I don't "do" the CEO, 'cause, first of all, I don't need to, and secondly--EWWW. Trust me. Just...ew.

Thank you Stargazer.

These petty digs at nurse executives or advanced degree nurses really are no different than me stating that ADNs are inferior. Knock it off! 'Cause I take crap like this personally.

[purplemania, BSN, RN]

Our facility pays $1.10/hr more for BSN. They also pay tuition so Iafter my ADN I pursued BSN. I too learned more than expected.

[CraigB-RN, MSN, RN]

I've been listining to this same argument for going on 25 years now. So far the only thing I agree with is that the ADN programs are no longer real 2 year programs. When I talk to the high school students here who are thinking of nursing I tell them to just look at the BSN programs. THey can get their BSN for in some cases just 1 semester longer than they can get an ADN. With the BSN they are set to whatever career path they choose. It has nothing to do with the skills or knowledge. I've seen BSN students chanting C=RN, and I"ve seen ADN students spending hours on care plans.

As a Director of Nursing I don't look at how the nurse got his or her education. I don't descriminate between any of the entry methods. I try to look at the individual. No matter which type of program they graduate from, I'm going to put them through a 6 month orientation.

I fear that by focusing on the educational component of nursing we're short changing ourselves. The only people who are looking at the letters after our name are us.

[Ortho_RN]

Craig.. Just curious.. How are ADN programs no longer REAL 2 year programs??

[Q.]

Nurs2b-

Meaning that obtaining an ADN most commonly takes 3, rather than 2 years to complete. In that time you are in some cases 1 semester away from a Bachelor's degree.

[EmeraldNYL, BSN, RN]

Originally posted by purplemania

Our facility pays $1.10/hr more for BSN. They also pay tuition so Iafter my ADN I pursued BSN. I too learned more than expected.

I think it's great that some facilities are willing to pay for nurses to advance their education. I'm a strong supporter of liberal arts classes but that's because I went to a small liberal arts college for my biology degree. I really enjoyed my classes in economics, literature, sociology, music, and especially the course I took on evolution-- I do think these classes made me a more well-rounded person. But I realize that not everyone loves school as much as I do.

That being said, I agree that this is something that has been debated to death and likely something that nurses will never agree on. Perhaps nurses who have only ever had a BSN, or only ever had an ADN, aren't really seeing the whole picture because they have never been a nurse with both degrees. Most nurses I have talked to seemed happy that they went on to get their BSN after their ADN. I would be interested to hear, are there any nurses on this board that started with their ADN and regretted spending the time and money to later get their BSN?

[wv_nurse 2003]

Okay I confess, I haven't taken the time to read every post on this thread (its a topic that has been debated to DEATH!)

IMHO--patients don't really care the degree of the nurse caring for them, as long as the nurse CARES for them. I also firmly believe that a good nurse will be a good nurse regardless of her educational level--just as a (excuse my language) "sucky" nurse will be a "sucky" nurse no matter how many letters she adds after her name. Of course--with all due respect, and again just my humble opinion

[New CCU RN]

Lrae.... I am not seeing anything that was arrogantly quoted. Please direct me to what you are refering to. You are quoting another poster on the board and then directing your comments towards me.

This is what I quoted and then subsequently posted.

Originally posted by kasey14546

[ I'm surprised at how many of you commented that experience was more important than education. I agree that experience is very important and that education has little value without the experience to back it up. However, to become nurses we needed specialized training in this field. That training is the back bone of our experience. If you feel that education is that meaningless you back up the claim that techs can replace us if they are trained.

(ABOVE QUOTED PORTION)

I couldn't agree with you more there! You pretty much have summed up exactly why it is important that nursing take the step that so many other professions have done in order to "raise the bar". No one is saying that an ADN or a Diploma nurse is not a good nurse.

The point is that by requiring a BSN or moving towards a BSN will in turn help the nursing profession. PT did this....they went from Bachelor's entry to Master's and now there is talk of PhD entry, Pharmacists did this...the majority of the programs are MS only now, and the list goes on.

We all complain that nurses don't get the respect and pay they deserve. Well certain things will do this. Upping the education requirements is one of these.

(ABOVE MY POST)

An interesting side.... a few years back...mid 90s PT was in huge huge demand....the jobmarket was at least 3 jobs per PT grad. Subsequently was about the same time that the MS become pretty much standard for entry level. The competition for jobs is now much more competitive and infact, that "shortage" which once existed is now diminishing away.

Granted, one example cannot prove that it will "help" the cause of nursing. But we are not discussing the nursing shortage here. We are talking about educational requirements for practice. Raising the "bar" for educational requirements for entry level will make nursing more of a profession and less of a vocation which is what it has been trying to do for years.

[Q.]

I would be interested to hear, are there any nurses on this board that started with their ADN and regretted spending the time and money to later get their BSN?

Excellent question. Does anyone have any input? What have been your experiences?

[Q.]

This is a sensitive issue with me and perhaps I am being too sensitive, but I really hate it when people refer to my educational acheivements as "letters behind my name" or "alphabet soup."

My degrees are much more than simply adding letters behind my name. There is so much more: hard work, dedication, sacrifice and knowledge gained. Please don't patronize or belittle that by oversimplifying my degrees as "letter behind my name."

Thank you.