Different pay and responsibility for 2 year RN's VS 4 year RN's

[kasey14546]

I'm completing an RN to BSN program in 2 months. I have learned so much in the BSN program I wish I had taken it sooner. The additional education has taught me skills I never learned in trainings, or by experience.

I think that just as there is a difference in the tasks an RN and LPN can preform, there should also be a difference in what a two year RN can do, in comparison to a RN with a BSN. The 2 year RN should not be in leadeership or management positions since they have not been trained in accredeited colleges for this skill. The BSN has. I'm sure the 2 yers RN's will disagree with me, and 2 years ago I would have disagreed also. However, after being able to compare the two from personal experience, I feel the BSN is more educated for leadership and management. The BSN nurse should be paid more, and should be the starting educational level for these positions.

Most professions have at least a 4 year degree. Nurses need to improve their educational standing to be equal with other professional fields.

[fab4fan]

Personally, I think increased education is a good thing, and anyone who has completed additional degrees has my respect.

I think what bothers me the most is people stating, overtly or covertly, that diploma and ADN nurses diminish the profession. So just as someone may feel hurt by the "alphabet soup" comment, I am hurt by that kind of commentary, too. I feel after 18y I have valuable things to contribute too, degree or no degree.

And I also think that this is a subject that you cannot fully debate until you are in the workforce and have some experience at what "real life" is.

[louloubell1]

I usually try to stay out of these threads that have to do with ADN vs diploma vs BSN. I try but it's difficult, so now I'll offer my 2 cents:

Firstly, I read someone's post back there that stated the only place she ever hears this argument come up is on the Internet...never in the workplace. I agree with that. I never hear it in the workplace, and frankly I don't even know what the educatonal background of most of the nurses I work with is. And more importantly, I don't care.

Secondly, I really get tired of hearing the comments about how you or he or she or whatever knows lots of ADNs who run circles around BSNs. So what. Being a BSN grad myself, I get offended by the comments of how my program was so inferior because it wasnt' an ADN or diploma program. Yes, I did have to take English lit, and pulic speaking, and several other goofy courses, but I also spent more than 1500 hours in clinicals in addition to more than 125 hours in skills labs practicing on dummies before patients, performed tons of nursing procedures, and I am more than just book-smart. It never fails though, that in these discussions, that is always something that gets thrown around (how other nurses were so much more clinically prepared than BSNs were). It's simply not true, at least not in every case, and it is as insulting to the BSN prepared nurse as it is to imply to the ADN nurse that she/he is inferior because she/he didn't go to school quite as long.

The last thing I'd like to remark about is the advancement of the profession. Though I can see the point that many of you make thinking that "raising the bar" for entry level nursing will garnish some respect for our profession, I humbly disagree. My husband is an FAA licensed airframes and powerplant mechanic & doesn't hold a degree of any kind, and yet people in his profession are respected and regarded as being intelligent people. I don't know what all the reasons are that we as nurses aren't seen as knowledgable, skilled professionals, but it seems to me that when other professions are regarded as such without even the kind of educational requirements that we as RNs must obtain, well there must be some other reasons for that lack of respect.

Just my two cents. I respect you all as collegues, regardless of education, experience, etc. I respect all of you for choosing to be a part of such a demanding and caring profession, and I would hope that we can all just learn to value, respect, and learn from each other.

Lou

Convicted of placenta previa & serving time on couch arrest ~ Day 40

[Q.]

I think what bothers me the most is people stating, overtly or covertly, that diploma and ADN nurses diminish the profession. So just as someone may feel hurt by the "alphabet soup" comment, I am hurt by that kind of commentary, too. I feel after 18y I have valuable things to contribute too, degree or no degree.

Hey Fab, you're catching me in a conversational mood!

I'm not sure how to phrase this, but by someone stating that having a BSN will increase professionalism in nursing, does that necessarily mean that ADNs/diploma diminish it? I guess, is there always an implied negative? Cause I know I sure don't mean it that way, and I'm pretty confident others don't.

Do you get what I'm asking?

[New CCU RN]

I agree with you SusyK..... no one is (at least I think) is trying to make derogatory comments. It isn't meant to be personal.

Fab I am sure you are an awesome nurse, and this "debate" isn't saying that ADN or diploma nurses aren't good nurses and don't contribute to the nursing field.

[bossynurse]

Originally posted by EmeraldNYL

[ I don't think this is right considering the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills.

All I can say to this is Bullstool!!!!!!!

[Stargazer]

I think what it all boils down to is that some people value formal education and some people don't. Very few nurses--and none, I think, here--are arguing that experience isn't an important and necessary teacher in addition to formal education. But that never seems to be clearly understood in these discussions.

[Q.]

Experience is an important and necessary teacher in addition to formal education.

There. Crystal.

[Stargazer]

Ah, there it is. Thanks, Susy!

[RN2B2005]

Here in Seattle, the University of Washington and Seattle University (a Jesuit college) offer a one-year accelerated nursing programme leading to a B.S.N. for people with a baccalaureate degree in any field.

I know two nurses who've done this programme--one has a B.Sc. in biochemistry, and the other has a B.A. in education. They are both excellent nurses and although they both were nervous about hitting the ground running after leaving entirely different careers, they're both very happy they did so. I'm starting in an A.D.N. programme but plan to eventually get my B.S.N., not because one is "better", but because that baccalaureate degree is important to me personally.

[Dr. Kate, BSN, RN]

Long before I went into nursing, I was reading my Mom's nursing journals on this topic. 40 years later, this has to be one of the most vicious discussions I have ever heard on the subject.

As part of the generation of college students that lobbied for and won the abolishment of general education requirements in colleges and started the trend toward meaningful, practical education--I apologize. We/I had no idea what we were setting into motion. The purpose of a liberal education is not to get a job when you graduate. The purpose of a liberal education is to expand the student's awareness of, knowledge of, and understanding of the world through study of language, literature, history, philosoiphy, religion, economics, the social sciences, the arts, and science. Does that make a person with a baccalaureate degree better than someone without one--of course it doesn't. Does it guarantee they are better educated, no. It means they have been exposed.

Nursing is a psychomotor skill set. You have to think and do. If you can do one without the other, you are not a nurse. And it doesn't matter if you can think or do, one isn't enough. All nursing programs teach people to think and do nursing. The more you think and do nursing, the better you get at it. A BSN isn't better than an ADN as far as being a nurse. And no one comes out of school with real nursing experience because until you are licensed and truly responsible and accountable for all your actions you're not a nurse. (I am speaking of RNs here, and mean no disrespect to LP/VNs. So please lets not start that one.) The real world is not like school or orientation or preceptorships or internships. Just as experirence hones skills, it also can perfect critical thinking.

So, what does a BSN do for you. In terms of the skills of nursing, probably not much. In terms of understanding why you're doing what you're doing, for some people it may help, for others it won't. Does it expand your understanding of the world and hence of the people you care for? It would be nice if it did that for everyone, but it deosn't. That's the reality of education at any level--like vaccinations, it doesn't always take, i.e. have the ideal, desired effect.

Again, I am sorry for being part of what has resulted in people viewing higher education as trade school. That was never my intent when I militated against general education requirements. But as in many things you don't know what the end will be when you set something in motion.

[Q.]

Dr. Kate: excellent post. Thank you. :)

[l.rae]

Originally posted by EmeraldNYL

. I don't think this is right considering the BSN has more education, and therefore more skills.

how is quoting you putting words in your mouth?...in my ADN program there are requirements for math, history, sociology, psychology....and being the liberal university that they are, the program NEVER fails to promote cultural diversity almost adnauseum.......incidently, having the GOOD fortune to have been an LPN prior to taking the ADN, l had been exposed to working with many of the new grads from this university.....and they do not have a reputation for hitting the ground running......as most grads from any program do not either. My liberal education did not make me a better nurse, l doubt my pts could ever tell the difference in the care they receive r/t my liberal education....It has made me a more rounded educated person....but not an inherrantly "better" person or nurse.........a BSN does NOT have any more skills to bring to the bedside....only to mngmt etc......LR