Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

[ktwlpn]

I posted this here becaue I think this subject is something that we as nurses deal with on a regular basis.....Many many people state that they have a big problem with the feeding being stopped "allowing her to starve to death" The Vatican says " To starve her to death is pitiless" Most everyone agrees that it is one's right to refuse to initiate artificial feeding but somehow this situation "is different" How? The patient "starves to death " in both cases-so why has this one galvanized the WORLD? My husband read me a quote from the Bible -forgive me because I can't remember it in detail-it was something along the lines that a woman marries and leaves her father's house and her husband becomes her family....My husband is my POA I hope no-one in my family questions his motives -He KNOWS exactly what I want....I can't question her husbands motives-I know that some suspect foul play and state the results of a bone scan support this...That bone scan was obtained 53 months after she went into her coma-after her body suffered the effects of her eating disorders for a number of years.... Her present level of responsiveness does not pertain to this matter IMHO-she CAN'T eat naturally--she did not ever want to "be kept alive like that " and she can't state otherwise at this point...So- #1 can someone PLEASE make me see why this case is" DIFFERENT" and #2 How do YOU support your patients and their loved ones when they are agonizing over this decision? ONe thing I always ask is "Did your loved one ever give you any idea of what they would want if something like this happened" and if they did then I advocate that stance for that pt as much possible.......I believe that death is the last great trip we'll go on and we should PLAN it as much as possible.The greatest GIFT we can give to our loved ones is an itinerary...........

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Your call, of course.

But that wasn't her "rhetoric": it was the headline in The Harvard Crimson.

The bigger question, perhaps, is whether we are gaining any ground in such a crucial debate by mincing words. If -- as Mr. Ford suggests -- the problem is an inherent "prejudice against disability," then what do we gain by refusing to call prejudice what it is: bigotry? And if Ms. Schiavo is being murdered, what do we gain by calling it something else?

Jim Huffman, RN

Jim, I clearly saw it was not written by Mercyteapot.

I read the rest of your post and am choosing not to comment at this time. I could get all wrapped up in semantics and opinions, but after nearly 700 posts on the topic, I'm not interested in doing that right now. And I agree, if that's what a person feels, no need to sugar coat their feelings. But did want you to know I read your post. :)

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

First of all, I am apologizing to all of you, because I was in something of a hurry when I posted the article and didn't add my own input. That's something I typically do and absolutely should have done in this case. I find this article very interesting precisely because it offers a perspective that I hadn't even considered, although that perspective is far more radical than my own. I have a son with a disability and used to consider myself quite enlightened in matters of advocacy, until I went to a conference last month and a panel presentation of self advocates really challenged my self assessment. And James, I'm sorry you won't read the post, because the viewpoint it offers is compelling, even if the title is inflammatory.

No need to apologize. I still call the title divisive rhetoric, but if that's how the person feels and if that person feels they can sway opinions, it's a free press. If this is what the writer believes, then no need to sugar coat it I guess, but the title isn't going to get many persons of the opposite side to finish reading it, imo.

One thing I'm comment on, and leave the rest alone, is that I don't think this case is going to put thousands of disabled persons at risk, becuase it's not a unique case. Families have been ending futile treatment for a long time. There are checks and balances, MD's, laws, family consent, etc. that are in place already to prevent "murder".

Again, I'm choosing to not get to far into it at this point because I think I remember about 600 posts ago saying I wouldn't even get started. :rotfl:

[LydiaNN]

I don't believe it's murder. And I am no bigot. I do agree the title is inflammatory ----but I will read it again---- to try and understand how the "other side" thinks. Even if I disagree. Even if I do find it distasteful and provocative. Because, I want to understand both sides of the issue. Because I am still not fully decided.....................(strange eh)

......................just yet.

I guess the politics are getting in the way of my knowing the REAL story.

I think the politics do get in the way of the real story, to the extent there even is a real story. I believe that Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers both have very honest perspectives. I don't think Michael Schiavo is evil, and I don't think the Schindlers are selfish. They are each behaving according to their own values and beliefs. How do you separate those perspectives from reality, especially when you have politicians, courts, the media and complete strangers presenting so many different versions of events? I think there are more than two sides to this story, and although the author of this article does in fact make some inflammatory remarks, I thought it was worthwhile to post because it does present a such a divergent viewpoint, and one born of experiences most of us will never face.

[lpnstudentin2010, LPN]

some people say the husband wants her to die so he can get money...i say....it must be gone by now....i mean after surgerys that i have a hospital stay....just the hospital not the surgery....costs i think $10,000 the money she came into must be gone

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

How about a little left-wing rhetoric? The title of this one alone is very interesting.

"Terri Schiavo Was Just An Innocent Bystander To A Political, Elmer Gantry Circus Of GOP Political Opportunists And Religious Hucksters

Terri Schiavo deserves our sympathy and our Godspeed.

She was just an innocent bystander to a political, Elmer Gantry circus of GOP political opportunists and religious hucksters.

The origins of the travesty and moral crime of exploitation was a family feud of sorts. It was about a wrenching decision made thousands of times a year by Americans about loved ones who are in vegetative states or terminal conditions.

But with the help of the infamous Randall Terry and the GOP hypocrisy machine, a case long ago settled by the courts, was hijacked to advance Republican fortunes and fill the pocket books of celebrity fundamentalist preachers.

Terri Schiavo, like anyone in her situation, deserves our sympathy and our empathy. She didn't ask for a three ring circus, but the Bush brothers and Tom "the Exterminator DeLay" could care less about her dignity or her life. She's only of use to them if her parents' campaign can help them further consolidate power -- or, in the case of DeLay, cling onto it amidst a rash of ethical and legal problems.

We are always a bit baffled when the mainstream media and centrist Democrats "concede" that the Republicans have some sort of monopoly on the "values issue." The only value that the GOP leadership seems to consistently embrace is hypocrisy. Virtually, everything else is brazen showboating by hardened sinners and liars, immoral opportunists and slick river boat gamblers playing the role of saintly pious men.

Take Tom DeLay as the Los Angeles Times did this week -- and as BuzzFlash has over the past five years. DeLay decried judges and anyone who would remove a feeding tube from Terri Schiavo as barbaric (even though it is done in such cases thousands of times a year). And that was just the beginning of his self-righteous fire and brimstone invective.

But it turns out that Tom "Hypocrisy Central" DeLay approved of removing life support from his father some years back. And, as for DeLay casting judgment on Michael Schiavo (who sat at his wife's bedside for years), Tom hasn't, according to the Washington Post, talked to his mother or siblings for years. He didn't even invite his mother to his daughter's wedding. If there is anyone who DOESN'T practice family values, it's Tom DeLay.

And then you have the Bush brothers. George W. Bush, who couldn't be bothered to interrupt his 2001 Crawford Ranch photo-op vacation to try and prevent 9/11 after receiving red alert warnings, flew back from Crawford to sign an unprecedented violation of the separation of powers law that would move the Schiavo case to the Federal Courts. The rather glaring hypocrisy here was that George W. Bush had signed a radically different kind of law while Governor of Texas, one that not only declared the spouse the person to decide (along with the doctor) if life support should be removed; he also allowed an option for doctors to remove life support from patients whose families did not have the means to pay for their care! Now, that's some hypocrisy!

And of course, Bush loved it when he set the record for executing people in Texas, killing more than 100,000 Iraqis, avoiding funerals of the 1500 plus GIs killed in Iraq, reducing health services to Veterans, and cutting Medicaid, among other deathly actions. But save one clinically brain dead woman and Bush is a hero to the people who are only for life for "saved" white Christians and unborn fetuses. Everyone else can pretty much rot in Hell. Heck, an infant was allowed to die in a Texas hospital under Bush's Lone Star State law -- against his mother's wishes -- while the Schiavo case was gaining full steam among the Republicans. Pook kid, if God wanted to save him, he would have been born a White Christian!

As for Jeb, his not so discreet angling for the 2008 presidential nomination, led him to send law enforcement officials to seize Terry Schiavo, according to the Miami Herald. Fortunately for the rule of law, the local police turned Jeb's troops away since they were violating a judge's court order. The next day Jeb denied the whole thing, even though the Miami Herald claimed three sources. Oh, and why is Jeb so interested in keeping a woman in a 15-year vegetative state from being at peace with her maker when he has decimated his state's Medicaid budget that helps keep kids and seniors alive and run a scandal-ridden department of children and family services? It's the Bush hypocrisy stupid.

Of course, heart surgeon Dr. Bill Frist once fessed up to rounding up stray cats during his medical school days, euthanizing them, and then practicing dissection on them. That was just the beginning of strange medical practices for Dr. Frist. He was able to diagnose, he claims, Terry Schiavo's condition from a videotape, even though the doctor appointed by Jeb Bush and all her attending doctors disagree with his rosy prognosis. It wouldn't be that Dr. Frist was looking to tie up the support of the loony wing of the religious right as he seeks the presidency in 2008, would it? Guess, if he wins, we won't have cats running loose around the White House.

And of course, unknown to most of the public, the Schiavo parents were being assisted by an army of PR luminaries from the so-called pro-life fanatics, including the infamous Randall Terry. A group of friars from Minnesota became one of the main visual images of the Schiavo parents' "religiosity." But, strangely enough, one of the friars admitted that they "pulled the plug" on the founder of their small group when he became seriously ill. Brother John Kaspari told the Tampa Bay Tribune, "He would have required intubation to keep him alive," Kaspari said. "We chose not to go that route. His lungs were full of fluid."

Are any of these religious right fanatics NOT hypocrites? Are they clinically delusional? Are they dangerous?

Perhaps, all of the above.

Judge Greer, who allowed the removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, has received death threats and is under armed guard, even though he is a loyal Republican and observant Baptist. "Kill for Life," we guess. Just like the anti-choice terrorists who claim they are preserving the sanctity of life by killing doctors who perform abortions.

In a farcical side note on "the shooters for life" contingent of the GOP, one man was arrested after trying to hold up a gun store with a box cutter. He wanted a gun to shoot his way into "rescuing" Terri Schiavo. The gun store owner, with plenty of guns to spare, pointed a handgun at "Terri's savior" and told the guy to lie down like a good puppy.

We are a nation gone mad, aren't we?

After all, the man who pulled the plug on democracy in 2000, Antonin Scalia, is running around the country campaigning to be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Even many Democrats praise his alleged "brilliance."

But we aren't impressed. First of all, he stole the presidency for George W. Bush. That's the work of a thug, not a genius.

Second of all, he thinks America lives under divine law. If so, he should be a Priest or legal counsel at his beloved Opus Dei, not a Supreme Court Chief Justice. This country is a democracy not a church.

Finally, he recently told a synagogue audience that Jews would be safer under a Christian nation. Uh, Antonin, didn't Hitler build up the Nazi era in Germany in the name of Christ? Just a lesson to you, Nino, the Jews didn't fare too well in that Christian nation. God, the guy ought to read a history book, instead of "Rapture."

And people think this guy is bright.

He's just another muscle guy for the GOP.

Terry Schiavo, you deserved better.

But when you have a nation run by a party whose ONLY real value is hypocrisy in pursuit of the maintenance of power, that's the Barnum and Bailey environment you get.

No one blames you for a thing. We just wish you final peace.

It's the rest of us who are daily at risk from this freak sideshow run amuck, with the carnival barkers operating out of the White House. "

[fergus51]

I think the disabled groups like this are just wrong. They have every right to their opinion of course, but this isn't about them.

[danu3]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050328/ts_alt_afp/useuthanasiajustice_050328195614

Something in this news worries me.

"I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine," Bob Schindler told the press Monday outside the hospice where his 41-year old daughter is a patient."

I really feel sorry for the hospice staff that is taking care of Terri right now. They are in a no win situation. If they give a bit too much morphine to control her pain and Terri dies, they are going to be accuse of killing her on purpose and thus further the distorted image that hospice is a place where you go to get kill by morphine. If they are extra extra extra careful, that probably means Terri will be in pain because she did not get the right dosage of morphine she needs, and they will say how painful it is for Terri.

If I understand hospice correctly, sometimes the line between enough morphine and an overdose can be very thin. But hospice never overdose a patient on purpose.

-Dan

[Tweety, BSN, RN]

Dan this statement "I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine," Bob Schindler told the press Monday outside the hospice where his 41-year old daughter is a patient." is a horrible insult to the Hospice organization and the fine MD's and nurses there. I'll chalk the statement up to ignorance to what hospice is about.

[mickeymouse1205]

I agree Danu3. I would NOT want to be any of those nurses in there.I tell you what though I would have 1-2 other nurses confirming my doses (what is drawn up and going to be administered) before I gave any morphine, because of what the father is saying, just to be on the safe side. I would also give what was appropriate and ordered to keep her comfortable, meaning not withholding to make other people happy to hell with everyone else who didn't like it, You would be the nurse for Terri, not the family, nor husband.Anyway. the whole situation stinks. If any good can come out of this whole mess, hopefully people will understand now, how important it is to not only tell your loved ones your wished but get it down in writing and legal etc..

Cheryl

[leslie :-D]

Dan this statement "I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine," Bob Schindler told the press Monday outside the hospice where his 41-year old daughter is a patient." is a horrible insult to the Hospice organization and the fine MD's and nurses there. I'll chalk the statement up to ignorance to what hospice is about.

tweety, you know i'm a hospice nurse.

and yes, often there is a very fine line between giving too much (to relieve suffering) and hastening death. morphine WILL hasten death but as long as it's your INTENT to relieve suffering, then it is the duty of the hospice nurse to relieve that suffering. with or w/o the schiavo case, there are still too many nurses out there who hesitate to give morphine, fearing that it will kill their patient. few people realize that it's the disease process itself that inevitably kills the patient.

IF it's true that terri is still struggling to remain alive, then the morphine is not going to take its' full affect; her adrenaline and cortisol levels will. but once she gets too weak and/or accepts her fate, then we will see her pass much more quickly.

i've worked with so many patients that fight it til the end; it's a horrible thing to watch.

leslie

[CHATSDALE]

i can't believe that anyone would think that the hospice would give too much ms and kill patient...this is something tha they do day in and day out...albeit w/o the media circus that is going on now...bless those who stand beside us and our loved ones in the end

[live4today, RN]

I really wish we could know Terri's thoughts.