A Lesson Learned

Nurses General Nursing

Published

Again, there is another thread started- which could be interpreted by some as passive-aggressive remarks about advanced degree nurses, and it could not. I read it and felt slightly insulted, and I responded. The thread now, appears to be taking on another ugly turn, and probably because I am involved. I sat here, after reading the replies, and started to feel exhausted again. Exhausted at feeling dismissed, put-down, not valued; all the things that nurses in general feel. I then thought back to when I was in school and when I decided to be a nurse.

I originally was a biology major. I loved the sciences and ultimately wanted to be a scientist. I worked in an environmental lab during college doing distillations and loved what I was learning. Somewhere, back in 1991 or 1992, I made the change to nursing. I also, while I enjoyed the sciences, loved infants and newborns and had a desire to take care of them. The nursing curriculum offered enough science courses to feed my hunger for them, and, would provide me the knowledge to obtain my RN license, so, I changed majors. At that time, I knew nothing of nursing as it is today. I did not know what an LPN was. I did not know that there were diploma programs and that nurses didn't have degrees. I assumed they all did. I thought nothing of it. I thought that all nurses were RNs and nothing else.

When I entered the curriculum, I then learned that no, not all nurses have BSNs. I learned how there used to be diploma programs, and how there are ADN programs. I learned in my management classes that, as a RN, I will most likely be delegating to other individuals to perform tasks. I learned that, as a BSN, I will be taught things that are not included in other programs. I learned that, as a BSN, I will have more opportunity to acquire positions that will possibly evoke change in the profession, or develop theories or test studies that could change how we practice. I was seeing this through the eyes of a young college student, who was eager to graduate and use what I've learned. I was eager to make a difference. Maybe my program was wrong is grooming us with this mindset, maybe it wasn't. But that is how I saw it at that time.

I then graduated college and it was the single most proudest moment of my life. As my academic hood was placed around my neck, and as I accepted my degree, and as I saw my family sitting in the crowd, looking at me realizing all the obstacles I had overcome, all the challenges I had faced, all the hours I had worked as a lab assistant, as a receptionist and as a bus-person to pay for school, I realized at that time, all that I had accomplished - and all that I had yet to do.

I started my nursing career in labor and delivery. I had a rough orientation, but loved learning the "skills" of L&D. I loved the challange that being an obstetric nurse provided. I joined AWHONN and attended conference after conference, read journal after journal, analyzing and critiquing the design, the method to see if I could apply it to my practice.

It was not until I joined internet communities that I came to learn that BSNs in fact, are not always valued by other nurses. No, other nurses don't look up to you for it. No, other nurses don't admire you for it. In fact, quite the opposite. Some people perceive BSNs as lacking basic skills, as having unnecessary classes, or, worse yet, as "just letters behind your name." I hear those comments, and I think back to my graduation day, and I almost want to cry. Cry at my choice to change my major back in 1991. Cry at the innocence that was lost the moment I became a working professional nurse. Now, I am hardened, suspicious, defensive and tired. I was disenchanted with the whole division of nursing, confused as to the roles each nurse played, stunned at the remarks about bachelor's degrees in general. Nursing made me what I am now: bitter.

I enrolled back into school because alot of the jobs I wanted as a nurse required a Master's degree. I also yearned to be back in that environment - the environment in which everyone is there to accomplish one thing - and that is to learn and to foster everyone else's learning. We read fellow graduate's theses and dissertations and are amazed at their findings and theories. We don't dismiss them or put them down because we LACK our Master's; in fact, we admire them. I have found that I can only function happily in the academic environment.

It was a sad realization, and I guess I just realized this now, after reading some of these threads. I feel the nursing profession has done nothing to foster my growth, but only hinder it. I am constantly reminded by my fellow nurses to "put my degree aside" and "keep myself in check." Do not tell anyone of your accomplishments - because, they aren't really what matters anyway. Well, it matters to me. :o

Thus, I retreat back to the hallowed halls of academia, to sequester in the quiet, somber alleys of the library filled with thousands of ideas that I have yet to discover. I find comfort in the old, creaky buildings from 1839 and the 200 year old Oak tree.

I guess, I wrote this thread to finally put into words what I've apparently felt for some time, but never really have been able to articulate. And I guess, I feel that I've given to my profession but haven't gotten anything back. Sometimes I feel that I should've stayed with biology.

I will make a difference in nursing, but it will not be at the bedside, I can almost guarantee you that. I will make my difference from afar, in writings and publications and research; in my ideas and theories, and, with my students. And, I feel that I am just as valuable in that regard as anyone who works at the bedside.

I just had to say that. :o

In 1923 Josephine Clara Goldmark published a paper called Nursing and Nursing education in the United States. She had examined more than 70 schools over 4 years. This report became generally known as the Winslow-Goldmark report. It recommended that the bachlor degree be the entry level for nurses. It was the reason that nursing programs became affliated with university affliations and national accrediation procedures. It was not until 1978 that the ANA resolved that the minimum preparation for entry into professional practice should be the baccalaureate degree in nursing. In 1979 the Committee on Credentialing in Nursing called for the establishment of a free-stading national credentialing center, this was not endorsed by the ANA. It was not until 1982 the NLN endorsed the baccalaureate degree as the minimum preparation for entry into professional nursing practice.

Suzy I am an ADN nurse. I will be going back for my BSN, not because I even particularly want to, but because for my career to go where I want (more independent practice) it is necessary. It is my thought that this profession has got to be one of the slowest moving ones around. The other problem is that nurses have almost from the beginning given their power away. Lavinia Dock was the only nurse from the beginning of the profession that advocated national legislation controlling the practice of nursing. Because that never happened individual states started putting practice acts into place, and it has to be noticed by anyone who has been on the board long those standards truly vary from state to state. There have been, and continues to be, too many in this profession who are unwilling to move forward. It is my thought that the only way that will change is for nurses like yourself who are passionate to not melt away into acadamia, it is vital, absolutely vital that you instead become an activist and an advocate for your profession.

I have more I would like to say, but it is late and the Easter Bunny has got to put out stuff for my little one and I still have to get up and go to services in the morning.

The biggest thing I can say is that nothing, absolutely nothing is going to change in the profession I love as long as no one really wants to get involved and force change.

Specializes in LTC/Peds/ICU/PACU/CDI.
Originally posted by RNPD

GreytNurse's first thread was closed, and now this latest one has been closed as well-and there is a reason. I would like to respond to some of the things she said, but I respect the moderator's decision to close the thread, since it was starting to get as bad as the first. So although I had the quote from her all typed out I refrained from posting it here, since that would defeat the purpose of closing the thread. But apparently some people just can't let it go.

"quote:

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Originally posted by RNPD

....My final message, be proud of who you are, and what you have accomplished. You don't need anyone to validate you as a nurse or more importantly as a human being, except yourself!

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I believe that this is the overall message that the LPNs here were trying to convey! Everyone should be proud of what they've accomplished in their nursing career, no matter what level. "-SKM-NURSIEPOOH

No one is saying that an LPN shouldn't be as proud as a BSN.

Unfortunately, the LPN referred to here DOES seem to need the validation of others-particularly those with advanced degrees. Otherwise why so defensive? Why continue to post-especially in a General disscussion area-about how they will never be accepted and how RNs just don't get it?

If we all truly just do the jobs at the levels our education prepared us for, and respect each other's work and acomplishments as meaningful, we would all get along. No one has to be better, all work is equally important.

Yes, a lot of people have said, in so many words, that LPNs aren't as good as RNs...there are plenty of threads here & on the LPN Corner which will verify that.

A lot of LPNs whom have worked faithfully in hospitals for many years, were laid-off & weaned out because hospital administrators, in their infinite wisdom, told them that their education was either worthless, useless, not enough or simply, not wanted. I think the root to a lot of hurt feelings & ego's is in this fact...feeling like you've been toss-out...like old - broken things.

Once out of the hospital system, LPNs are told that they're only useful in nursing homes, home heatlh, & in doctors' offices & were discriminated against by hospitals for years. Now, that there's a nursing shortage, the hospital administrators are reconsidering their decision to "get rid" of the LPNs. This issue goes a lot deeper than just how some of the RNs think of LPNs...it's how the whole medical community perceive & utilizes them...one minute they're needed & valued...the next...they're not. It like being a ping-pong ball...back & forward.

You only further add the fuel to the fire when you spoke about "them" meaning the LPNs posting here on the General Discussion Boards...which is supposed to be opened to EVERYBODY...from CNAs, Nursing Students, LPNs, RNS, to MDs. The comment of "them" (LPNs) posting here on the general boards suggests that they aren't welcome or don't have the right to post here & that they should remain in the "special" LPN Corner made for them.

Thats's just another example of where some tact should've been used...you as a professional person know just what you're saying & know just how you're relaying your messages here. You say that the LPNs are slinging inflammatory remarks...I think you really need to recheck your above comment about "them" posting here on the General Discussion Board...& you'll understand their position!

RN Country - you have dropped SERIOUS knowledge on me with your outstanding post. I am thinking of one day teaching, and you have directed my thoughts and searchs for knowledge to the very beginning of nursing, and I thank you. Your post is very informative, showing an evolution of nursing which I was not awar of. Now I am, and am in your debt

I feel badly when I read of the hurt feelings from our posts---hurt feelings on the part of BSN's, non BSN's and LPN's alike. :(

I guess it comes down to our own personal decision to 'build people up" or 'tear people down'. Our titles do very little to influence our ability to do this, we have to search our hearts...as Mario has alluded to..

As a human being, mother, wife and nurse I strive to build people up as much as possible--to love/care for another is to validate worth and encourage growth. Sometimes our human frailties cause us to lash out or be impatient and I am guilty of this.

If I have offended anyone on this BB I heartily apologise...we should indeed all be proud of our accomplishments. I am very proud of my CCRN, Susy is proud of her BSN, and Mario is proud of his CNA, Greytnurse is proud of her LPN. We're in this crazy healthcare world together, so let's remember to save a little of our caring for each other, and even ourselves. :)

Luv ya'll! :)

As long as I do not take personal responsibility for my situation and continue pointing fingers and say YOU should fix this or do this then there will always remain 3 more fingers pointing back at me.

I'm sorry to come across *****y but it is not up to "nurses like yourself" It is not even up to nurses like myself. It is up to me. Not everyone chooses, came into nursing for, or wants to lobby, or can become politically active at a high level. But many are active in small or apparently hidden ways.

Nursing teachers (hid in acedemia) are often the greatest political advocates for us. They taught me before even leaving school how to be politically active, and the unfortunate need for it. They also taught me what areas needed attention before I found out for myself.

It is a waste of my time to say YOU must fix something for me. I don't see us gaining leadership by continuing to waite for someone to follow. It's been said "managers do things right. Leaders do the right thing"

The only question I can rightfully ask is, "what have I done lately?"

Specializes in Critical Care,Recovery, ED.

This is an interesting and informative thread and I do hope it will not be closed anytime soon.

Where to start, divide and conquor, that what has been encouraged by those who do not want to let Nursing acheive the level of input that the profession deserves. We do need to look at history and learn from it.

Yes LPN's were essentially driven out of hospital nursing. It was done for sensible business reasons but these reasons were poorly communicated and easily misinterperted. The scope of practise of the LPN is considerably less than that of an RN (in most states). The RN gives the hospital(employer) more flexibility and thus LPN has became a less desirous employee because of their limited scope of practise. This is fact and needs to be recognized by all. Will this change as the shortage grows? Look to the history of the development of the LPN and previoius RN shortages.

It has been advocated for many decades if not for over a century that the entry level for RN should be the BSN degree. ANd going forward if this is not adopted Nursing will never grow or receive the recognition and rewards it deserves. This too is fact and will not change until the American culture does. Again divide and conquor. Look to Nursing history and place it it the culture of the the 19th and 20th century. Particularly how society looked at the status and role of women.

As for retreating into academia, the best professors I had were those that continued to work in direct patient care. Some schools require their professors to keep a clinical practise going and wish more would do so.

Specializes in surgical, neuro, education.

Being a nursing educator and per diem bedside nurse, I can't see how in the near future the majority of new grads will have their BSN. The cost, the time, the cost are major reasons. We are entering another nursing shortage. I say another--because I remember the mid 80's when, as an LPN, the hosp. were begging for nurses of any level.

Since that huge recruitment, many of the LPN's I work with have been in acute care for 15+ years. I don't see any difference on the unit whether it is an ADN or BSN. We all work together to deliver the best care we can. (I must work in a very unusual unit after reading some of the postings on this board).

I agree with ocankhe that we will not progress much further until the entry level is a BSN, but it is not going to happen in the near future. So what we all need to realize is that school only gives you building blocks, it is how you use those blocks that shapes you into a great nurse at any level. (which I have seen many new grads get eaten alive because they are not "experts" in their field).

Happy Easter to everyone.

Specializes in Psych, hospice, family practice.

OK, I tend to avoid these threads like the plague (at least replying to them). But the theme has touched home enough, that I am at last compelled to respond.

Certainly, in the nursing profession (and with that I include ALL - CNAs, LPNs, RNs - no matter the degree) we are a collective group. But within that group, we are all individuals - with uniqie ideas, goals, lifestyles - you name it.

To me it's not the degree, but the person with it. I respect all - because I am certain that I can learn from something from each.

Personally, I am an ADN for 12 years. I have known for a few years now, that in order to practice the kind of nursing care I want to provide, I must pursue advanced education. But life circumstances - up to now, had not been conducive to pursuing that goal. But guess what - that time is finally here. I am about to begin at last.

And yes I will be proud when that day finally arrives, but pride, in my opinion, should remain subjective. The letters at the end of my name, doesn't change who I am. The further education and life experiences along the way, will undoubtedly foster my personal growth. But I am still just me. A little ole country girl, from the south, that if you heard me speak with my drawl, you may just assume that I'm 30 IQ points dumber than I really am - LOL. Which actually summarizes my point. That it's unfair to judge based on perceptions. Any perceptions. The actual human being inside is what counts.

Mary

Specializes in LDRP; Education.

Moe-

Again, you seem to be acting as "peacemaker" and while that is noble and I admire that, this thread was started as a way to vent in regards to Gretynurse's thread that was closed AGAIN. All I asked for on that thread was to not knock BSNs either out in the open or between the lines, and, I was seen as elitist for that. I was even told that the way I connected with my patient wasn't even that special, that ANY nurse at that moment would have been a "God-send." I don't believe that. I connected with her in a way that no one else did. Several other caregivers had been taking care of her that day as well, but she connected with ME. It seems now that I can't even revel in my accomplishments that have NOTHING to do with my BSN.

This thread is meant to speak out for all the RNs and BSNs here who often feel scared to post; it is not about LPNs and who is worth more. It is about RNs and BSNs right now and being proud of their accomplishments, and rising above the blanket statements of RNs and BSNs being unskilled at the bedside! That is what this about.

And that is what I meant by my other post above. Derogatory comments about an RN or BSN should NOT be tolerated, just as comments about LPNs (even when they are not derogatory - but simply fact, such as that LPNs don't work in critical care areas in MY state) are not tolerated. And if derogatory comments are made about me, I reserve the right to defend myself without being seen as elitist, or "very young" or immature. That is all.

quotes by SKM-NURSIEPOOH

"Yes, a lot of people have said, in so many words, that LPNs aren't as good as RNs...there are plenty of threads here & on the LPN Corner which will verify that. "

I would like to see specific posts where RNs who post here specifically bash LPNs.

"A lot of LPNs whom have worked faithfully in hospitals for many years, were laid-off & weaned out because hospital administrators, in their infinite wisdom, told them that their education was either worthless, useless, not enough or simply, not wanted. I think the root to a lot of hurt feelings & ego's is in this fact...feeling like you've been toss-out...like old - broken things. "

That is certainly not the fault of the RNs who post here. That was a corporate decision that LPNs can not be utilized as efficiently in hospitals as RNs-even if LPNs cost less. What does that have to do with me or anyone else who posts here? The day they decide to get rid of RNs in certain facilities and replace them with MAs-will I turn around and bash NPs?

"Once out of the hospital system, LPNs are told that they're only useful in nursing homes, home heatlh, & in doctors' offices & were discriminated against by hospitals for years."

Again not the fault of RNs here.

"...it's how the whole medical community perceive & utilizes them...one minute they're needed & valued...the next...they're not. It like being a ping-pong ball...back & forward. "

Ditto

"You only further add the fuel to the fire when you spoke about "them" meaning the LPNs posting here on the General Discussion Boards...which is supposed to be opened to EVERYBODY...from CNAs, Nursing Students, LPNs, RNS, to MDs. The comment of "them" (LPNs) posting here on the general boards suggests that they aren't welcome or don't have the right to post here & that they should remain in the "special" LPN Corner made for them. "

No, that may be what you inferred but not what I meant. GreytNurse posted her comments on a General Nursing Board, and asked for opinions. But it seemed that the only opinions she actually wanted were from other LPNs or RNs that agreed with her. My point was that if you don't TRULY want the opinion of ANYONE who reads the post, then don't go to the general discussion area-use a specialty area where you know the majority will do what you want-agree with you.

"Thats's just another example of where some tact should've been used...you as a professional person know just what you're saying & know just how you're relaying your messages here. You say that the LPNs are slinging inflammatory remarks...I think you really need to recheck your above comment about "them" posting here on the General Discussion Board...& you'll understand their position!"

The above proves my point-that some LPNs are so insecure and defensive about themselves and the initials behind their name that they see a disagreeing opinion as bashing, instead of an opposing opinion, and see insult where none is meant.

Now that you have succeeded in turning SusyK's thread into a clone of the 2 closed ones, I will again retire from this discussion, as there is obviously nothing new to say and nothing more to be gained, after well over 500 posts on the subject in the last few weeks.

Originally posted by SKM-NURSIEPOOH

There's nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments & expressing that...as long as it's not at someone else's expense.

OK, what I don't get is how is my being proud of myself EVER at someone else's expense? (I am not offended by other people's accomplishments, why would someone else be of mine?).

OK, Fergus, I'll bite here and offer some anecdote... :)

Ever worked with someone who seems oblivious to all that needs attention in the unit, ignoring ringing phones and beeping monitors to talk endlessly about him/herself, his/her degrees and high falutin' future plans? The nurse that walks onto the unit and immediately wants to draw attention, despite the fact you're trying to get shift report and/or handle a crisis?

I have.... too many times. Intrinsic pride is one thing, ego is another..... It's really NOT an education issue. It's an EGO issue, IMHO that is really behind the controversy on threads such as this one....

Dare I say this? MOST (not all, mind you, but MOST) nurses I have encountered in the above category have been BSN's...and I have to wonder 1) where this egotistical attitude comes from and 2) how is this helpful to anyone in nursing if we look at the big picture?

The beneficiaries of our 'splitting' profession are the hospitals and the BSN institutions who make big $$$ off propogating elitism and divisiveness in our ranks. JMHO as always. ;)

Of course all are free to disagree.:)

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