A Lesson Learned

Nurses General Nursing

Published

Again, there is another thread started- which could be interpreted by some as passive-aggressive remarks about advanced degree nurses, and it could not. I read it and felt slightly insulted, and I responded. The thread now, appears to be taking on another ugly turn, and probably because I am involved. I sat here, after reading the replies, and started to feel exhausted again. Exhausted at feeling dismissed, put-down, not valued; all the things that nurses in general feel. I then thought back to when I was in school and when I decided to be a nurse.

I originally was a biology major. I loved the sciences and ultimately wanted to be a scientist. I worked in an environmental lab during college doing distillations and loved what I was learning. Somewhere, back in 1991 or 1992, I made the change to nursing. I also, while I enjoyed the sciences, loved infants and newborns and had a desire to take care of them. The nursing curriculum offered enough science courses to feed my hunger for them, and, would provide me the knowledge to obtain my RN license, so, I changed majors. At that time, I knew nothing of nursing as it is today. I did not know what an LPN was. I did not know that there were diploma programs and that nurses didn't have degrees. I assumed they all did. I thought nothing of it. I thought that all nurses were RNs and nothing else.

When I entered the curriculum, I then learned that no, not all nurses have BSNs. I learned how there used to be diploma programs, and how there are ADN programs. I learned in my management classes that, as a RN, I will most likely be delegating to other individuals to perform tasks. I learned that, as a BSN, I will be taught things that are not included in other programs. I learned that, as a BSN, I will have more opportunity to acquire positions that will possibly evoke change in the profession, or develop theories or test studies that could change how we practice. I was seeing this through the eyes of a young college student, who was eager to graduate and use what I've learned. I was eager to make a difference. Maybe my program was wrong is grooming us with this mindset, maybe it wasn't. But that is how I saw it at that time.

I then graduated college and it was the single most proudest moment of my life. As my academic hood was placed around my neck, and as I accepted my degree, and as I saw my family sitting in the crowd, looking at me realizing all the obstacles I had overcome, all the challenges I had faced, all the hours I had worked as a lab assistant, as a receptionist and as a bus-person to pay for school, I realized at that time, all that I had accomplished - and all that I had yet to do.

I started my nursing career in labor and delivery. I had a rough orientation, but loved learning the "skills" of L&D. I loved the challange that being an obstetric nurse provided. I joined AWHONN and attended conference after conference, read journal after journal, analyzing and critiquing the design, the method to see if I could apply it to my practice.

It was not until I joined internet communities that I came to learn that BSNs in fact, are not always valued by other nurses. No, other nurses don't look up to you for it. No, other nurses don't admire you for it. In fact, quite the opposite. Some people perceive BSNs as lacking basic skills, as having unnecessary classes, or, worse yet, as "just letters behind your name." I hear those comments, and I think back to my graduation day, and I almost want to cry. Cry at my choice to change my major back in 1991. Cry at the innocence that was lost the moment I became a working professional nurse. Now, I am hardened, suspicious, defensive and tired. I was disenchanted with the whole division of nursing, confused as to the roles each nurse played, stunned at the remarks about bachelor's degrees in general. Nursing made me what I am now: bitter.

I enrolled back into school because alot of the jobs I wanted as a nurse required a Master's degree. I also yearned to be back in that environment - the environment in which everyone is there to accomplish one thing - and that is to learn and to foster everyone else's learning. We read fellow graduate's theses and dissertations and are amazed at their findings and theories. We don't dismiss them or put them down because we LACK our Master's; in fact, we admire them. I have found that I can only function happily in the academic environment.

It was a sad realization, and I guess I just realized this now, after reading some of these threads. I feel the nursing profession has done nothing to foster my growth, but only hinder it. I am constantly reminded by my fellow nurses to "put my degree aside" and "keep myself in check." Do not tell anyone of your accomplishments - because, they aren't really what matters anyway. Well, it matters to me. :o

Thus, I retreat back to the hallowed halls of academia, to sequester in the quiet, somber alleys of the library filled with thousands of ideas that I have yet to discover. I find comfort in the old, creaky buildings from 1839 and the 200 year old Oak tree.

I guess, I wrote this thread to finally put into words what I've apparently felt for some time, but never really have been able to articulate. And I guess, I feel that I've given to my profession but haven't gotten anything back. Sometimes I feel that I should've stayed with biology.

I will make a difference in nursing, but it will not be at the bedside, I can almost guarantee you that. I will make my difference from afar, in writings and publications and research; in my ideas and theories, and, with my students. And, I feel that I am just as valuable in that regard as anyone who works at the bedside.

I just had to say that. :o

Suzy,

I have read your posts about higher degrees and can not disagree with your views. It just seems to me that you use alot of energy continuously debating this issue. You have nothing to prove to anyone else and you have every right to be proud of your accomplishments.

I have this belief that those that put down entry levels other than the one that they have are insecure and we cannot change this by debating it over and over on a bulletin board. This is why I will read these posts, but a rarely respond to the posts such and the ones that are titled like they are just looking for an argument.

I am an ADN nurse and I do not disrespect BSN nurses. I wish I would have had the time and resourses to pursue that avenue, but I do not feel like my education was in any way inferior to others in regards to bedside nursing. I work in a very small rural hospital and am the night charge nurse only because I have more acute care experience then the other nurses there and one is a BSN. She does not act superior, she will consult me about the care of her patients, and I will consult her about mine and about issues pertaining to how to handle other employees. She has the educational backgroud and management experience that I lack and I know this, she is a great resource. So, I look at this relationship as a team effort, we each have knowledge that is crucial to the way our patients are taken care of and we all pitch in when needed.

I hate all of these generalzations about others. This does more to create problems between different levels of education than anything. Everyone deserves a chance reagardless of thier educational background, lets base our assessment of others on individual merits, not on a bad experience we had with an individual that happened to have a BSN, ADN, LPN or diploma. That just makes no sense.

I hear more LPN's state that RN's say this and say that about LPN's than I have heard RN's state these kind of things. In fact, I have never heard RN's state most of the things that I have heard LPN's say they do. So, when these threads come up, I tend to take it with a grain of salt. Sometimes you just have to consider the source.

Specializes in LTC/Peds/ICU/PACU/CDI.
Originally posted by SICU Queen

I have a question. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't give a hoot about a nurse's initials, as long as the effort is there and I have some decent knowledgeable backup in a crisis.

For those BSNs pursuing a Master's: Exactly how much clinical experience do you feel you should have before you are allowed to become a nursing instructor? My husband is in his third clinical semester of an ADN program. He has been an LPN for 14 years, and spent half of that in the military working in ICU. He is VERY experienced. One of his first semester instructors spent ONE year working in a DOCTOR'S OFFICE before obtaining her MSN and becoming an instructor.

While I appreciate and respect her book knowledge, how the hell can she teach a student ANYTHING about bedside nursing? She's NEVER DONE IT.

...leaves me to wonder too...very interesting question.

Specializes in Adult internal med, OB/GYN, REI..

One of his first semester instructors spent ONE year working in a DOCTOR'S OFFICE before obtaining her MSN and becoming an instructor.

ouch...well that pinches it.

Hey ya'll...um. my head is spinning. Perhaps cuz it seems that this is quite laurel polishing and all...there seems to be such definite striaie, still after all this has been said.

Of course this is super frustrating...we've all experienced the countless ways that animosity may rear it's head in the workplace and clinical setting.

It's unfortunate that individuals mar the greater population ( whether it be LPN, ADN, BSN, MSN WHATEVER).

ANd that's just it....that's it ya'll.

LOVE WHAT YOU DO AND DO IT THE BEST YOU CAN.

and most of all, love yourself for what you value and what you've acheived under those strengths and desires.

I think that until there is one type of floor nurse, this animosity and senseless comparison will never be completely alleviated.

I myself have (ALMOST THERE) earned a degree..an ADN...a degree in nursing...and once i have begun working with my license under my belt , i will begin my work towards my MSN....and i can't qwait to have that accomplishment in my heart....blah blah...jeez...i think i am done now...

Wow, folks DO enjoy discussing this topic, but Billy Joel all ready covered it in his song "It's Stll Rock-n-Roll To Me"

"Should I try to be a straight A student - If you are than you think too much."

:-)

and another song...

"Maybe by being an A student I can win your Love for me"

What a wonderful world this would be

Here's a question...

Would everybody be telling the LPN's to 'calm down' and 'be intrinsically proud of their own accomplishments' if people went all over this board and said what lousy, skill-less, snotty, stupid nurses LPN's are?

Of course not. If someone even INFERS another poster to be saying the above about LPN's, the cavalry immediately comes calling to tell this person how horrible they are for saying these things...and rightly so. But if it's said about a BSN nurse, this is somehow okay.

Hence my point. Just like all white people are evil, all men are pigs, all cops profile, all gun-owners are rednecks and gangstas, all rich people INHERITED not earned their money, all skinny people are 'genetically that way...have never been fat in their lives,' and all stay at home moms look down on working mothers, and all BSN nurses (according to a LOT of folks on this board) are snotty and skill-less and stupid and worthless SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY HOLD A BSN. Saying these things is deemed okay and even p.c. to some extent...you know, 'keeping the evil oppressors in their place.'

Why is it okay to regularly insult and put down certain groups of people but not others? HERE'S A THOUGHT...IT'S NEVER OKAY.

This is Susy's point, my point, and a lot of other people's points here. Yes, PLEASE, let's DO all judge the nurse by her work and her individual merits, not by the letters after her name!! That would mean not only not ASSuming all LPN's work long term care and are not qualified to work critical care, BUT BY THE SAME TURN not ASSuming that all BSN's are snotty, rude, have never worked at the bedside, and only want to go into administration and that's why they got a BSN.

Please. Get off the BSN bashing. There's a lot of it that goes on here on a regular basis, and it's RUDE, UNPROFESSIONAL, UNWARRANTED, AND TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE. If you want threads and quotes, pm me, I'll send 'em to you. Out of respect for the poor tired administrators, though, this is it for me for posting on this thread.

Thank you.

Originally posted by SICU Queen

I have a question. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't give a hoot about a nurse's initials, as long as the effort is there and I have some decent knowledgeable backup in a crisis.

For those BSNs pursuing a Master's: Exactly how much clinical experience do you feel you should have before you are allowed to become a nursing instructor? My husband is in his third clinical semester of an ADN program. He has been an LPN for 14 years, and spent half of that in the military working in ICU. He is VERY experienced. One of his first semester instructors spent ONE year working in a DOCTOR'S OFFICE before obtaining her MSN and becoming an instructor.

While I appreciate and respect her book knowledge, how the hell can she teach a student ANYTHING about bedside nursing? She's NEVER DONE IT.

I am not getting my Masters, yet, but I would say 5-10 years. Then they should be required to work a few shifts a year as a bedside nurse. I hated getting techers who hadn't done any bedside care in 20 years. They just didn't understand....

shay,

Couldn't agree with you more, but what do you mean all skinny people aren't genetically like that? You're putting a bummer on my Easter chocolate pig out plans;)

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Originally posted by SICU Queen

I have a question. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I don't give a hoot about a nurse's initials, as long as the effort is there and I have some decent knowledgeable backup in a crisis.

For those BSNs pursuing a Master's: Exactly how much clinical experience do you feel you should have before you are allowed to become a nursing instructor? My husband is in his third clinical semester of an ADN program. He has been an LPN for 14 years, and spent half of that in the military working in ICU. He is VERY experienced. One of his first semester instructors spent ONE year working in a DOCTOR'S OFFICE before obtaining her MSN and becoming an instructor.

While I appreciate and respect her book knowledge, how the hell can she teach a student ANYTHING about bedside nursing? She's NEVER DONE IT.

Shay, simply put, thank you.

SICU Queen:

In regards to your question. So far, certain MSN programs, depending on the track, DO require so many years of experience. For example, the public university here has a WHNP which requires at least 2 years in Women's Health prior to being accepted.

My particular program, which is a MSN with an Education focus, requires no particular time-frame for clinical experience in order to be admitted. The program is designed for working nurses, so 100% of the students enrolled are already working. I myself have been a Labor and Delivery nurse for 4 years. My MSN will take me 3 years, so total I would have been a clinical nurse for 7 years by time I graduate.

As far as your question: there are Nurse Educators who teach the community: ie they design and implement educational programs, there are those who work in staff development, and design and coordinate programs for staff. You don't necessarily need bedside experience in order to do these things.

As far as Nurse Educators who are instructors: there is a difference b/t those who are clinical instructors and those who are professors/lecturers/researchers. As an instructor, yes, I personally believe that you should have bedside experience if you are going to be working in the skills lab at the local nursing school. But typically, those instructors don't apply for those types of positions if they lack in that area. Those nurse educators would be best fit in a lecture setting. Now, my only clinical experience is in obstetrics. I may, as a lecturer, have to teach a Med-Surg lecture. I have never worked Med-Surg and it would certainly help teach better, in my opinion, but my MSN teaches me HOW to teach, which, is a skill that has been lacking with alot of professors/instructors lately. You can have the knowledge, but if you can't deliver it, what's the point? There is none. ;)

Tim-GNP has had this same experience. Educators who have a MSN and are great clinicians, but haven't been taught how to teach. It can totally ruin a student's experience and even hinder their learning.

And, to everyone else in regards to this thread: I started the thread because I wanted to tell people that putting down BSNs is not acceptable and will finally not be tolerated on this BB. It's not about convincing you to get a BSN - it's about quitting the insults that have gone unchecked on this BB for as long as I've been here.

As far as I'm concerned, the message is delivered and the thread can end for all I care. :D

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Originally posted by SKM-NURSIEPOOH

...Happy Easter! I hope everyone had a spiritually reflective & peaceful day...as much as possible for those who had to work or aren't here due to the war. I hope everyone got a chance to spend this joyous day/evening with their love ones & friends for as we all know from September 11th, life is too short. I just wanted to share my thought & wishes with all of my fellow nursing colleagues and new found friends here at All Nurses.com BB; I do think about, respect, & appreciate you all very much.:kiss ;) :):chuckle:roll:blushkiss:D :p :cool:

Sincerely - Moe

Happy Easter to you too, Moe.

Specializes in Vents, Telemetry, Home Care, Home infusion.

it's been said that nurses need to be knowledgeable about our past to understand the present and change our future:

what nurses stand for

suzanne gordon

feb 1997

the atlantic magazine

http://www.theatlantic.com//issues/97feb/nurse/nurse.htm

five years later in 2002, this same story has been repeatedly told in various ways in countless articles. people can listen but not really hear you. just this year, we are beginning to be heard as we see california legislating staffing ratios and other states instituting mandatory overtime legislation to change bedside nurses working conditions. wish everyone would hear suzanne gordon's eloquent words too. karen

significant events in the history of nursing

http://www4.allencol.edu/~sey0/hist1a.html

men in american nursing history

http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/6011/

history of the national league for nursing (nln)

supporting nursing education for over a century

http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/info-history.htm

voices from the past, visions of the future

a summary of selected benchmarks in the history of the american nurses association

http://nursingworld.org/centenn/index.htm

ana's hall of fame

the ana hall of fame is a lasting tribute to nurses whose dedication and achievements have significantly impacted the nursing profession throughout the years. the achievements of the nominee must have enduring value to nursing beyond the nominee's lifetime.

http://nursingworld.org/hof/index.htm

understanding current nursing education in the usa.:

http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/subjects/nursing.html

future ideas for nursing education

nursing history in the curriculum:

preparing nurses for the 21st century

http://www.aahn.org/position.html

nln: a vision of nursing education

this work was developed in 1993 after listening to the conversations of nln members in council meetings, programs, and committees; reading their literature and their resolutions; hearing their questions and their answers and receiving the comments and suggestions of individual faculty, administrators of nursing services, and students. it is as relevant in 2001 as it was when it was published in 1993.

http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/vision.htm

wonderful historical links found at these sites

including past nursing leaders and nurses in war wwii, vietnam and desert storm:

dianne brownson's nursing notes--history links:

http://members.tripod.com/~diannebrownson/history.html

open directory project :

http://dmoz.org/health/nursing/history/

while practicing as an lpn 1977-82, i was fortunate to chose a hospital organization that valued and encouraged nursing education and was a clinical site for diploma, bsn and asn nursing students. after experiencing one main line phila. schools bsn students and some condescending remarks that lpn's were to serve the rn's and that bsn's "new it all" i was put off by their attitude......until a different bsn's program came through and their students were humbled to be learning from an lpn charge nurse on a telemetry unit.

over the ensuing years i've come to realize it is more an individuals personality that looks down or disfavorable towards another colleague, not the level of education/degree they had. i learned so much about hospital beside nursing from the 2 nursing assistants i was charge nurse over as a new lpn on night shift; the asn rn's on middle shift from ireland, phillipines and thailand taught me disease process and medication management; nursing administration taught me to seek knowledge for learning new skills and theories so i could provide the best pateint care; while bsn college taught me to look at the world of nursing in all its variations and to be open to new ideas for change is forever in the healthcare field. the msn program is teaching me to look at what exactly am i doing, why i do what i do, and is there anything different i can incorporate into my practice while it continues to expose me to the rich tapestry of nursing. when we have teamwork, we can do anything and survive.

edited spelling.koh

cry at the innocence lost when I first became a professional nurse.......

to all those who chose to stay at bedside nursing.........hands down and way more than that.....actually that is where I am at the moment....

to those of you who go on.....good and great for you.......

cause what we need is leaders, activists, and just plain thinkers in this field we call nursing.......

I can bring a cup of coffee.........and glad to.........

but gee whiz.........it is time to quit being the handmaidens of doc's and public.....

micro not very fluent in her thoughts tonight.....the above posters have made their their statements very eloquently and I can say it no better......

think I want to teach...but that is another time and place...

micro

Specializes in LTC/Peds/ICU/PACU/CDI.
originally posted by nrskarenrn

it's been said that nurses need to be knowledgeable about our past to understand the present and change our future:

what nurses stand for

suzanne gordon

feb 1997

the atlantic magazine

http://www.theatlantic.com//issues/97feb/nurse/nurse.htm

five years later in 2002, this same story has been repeatedly told in various ways in countless articles. people can listen but not really hear you. just this year, we are beginning to be heard as we see california legislating staffing ratios and other states instituting mandatory overtime legislation to change bedside nurses working conditions. wish everyone would hear suzanne gordon's eloquent words too. karen

significant events in the history of nursing

http://www4.allencol.edu/~sey0/hist1a.html

men in american nursing history

http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/6011/

history of the national league for nursing (nln)

supporting nursing education for over a century

http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/info-history.htm

voices from the past, visions of the future

a summary of selected benchmarks in the history of the american nurses association

http://nursingworld.org/centenn/index.htm

ana's hall of fame

the ana hall of fame is a lasting tribute to nurses whose dedication and achievements have significantly impacted the nursing profession throughout the years. the achievements of the nominee must have enduring value to nursing beyond the nominee's lifetime.

http://nursingworld.org/hof/index.htm

understanding current nursing education in the usa.:

http://www.fulbright.co.uk/eas/subjects/nursing.html

future ideas for nursing education

nursing history in the curriculum:

preparing nurses for the 21st century

http://www.aahn.org/position.html

nln: a vision of nursing education

this work was developed in 1993 after listening to the conversations of nln members in council meetings, programs, and committees; reading their literature and their resolutions; hearing their questions and their answers and receiving the comments and suggestions of individual faculty, administrators of nursing services, and students. it is as relevant in 2001 as it was when it was published in 1993.

http://www.nln.org/aboutnln/vision.htm

wonderful historical links found at these sites

including past nursing leaders including nurses in war wwii, vietnam and desert storm:

dianne brownson's nursing notes--history links:

http://members.tripod.com/~diannebrownson/history.html

open directory project :

http://dmoz.org/health/nursing/history/

while practicing as an lpn 1977-82, i was fortunate to chose a hospital organization that valued and encouraged nursing education and was a clinical site for diploma, bsn and asn nursing students. after experiencing one main line phila. schools bsn students and some condescending remarks that lpn's were to serve the rn's and that bsn's "new it all" i was put off by their attitude......until a different bsn's program came through and their students were humbled to be learning from an lpn charge nurse on a telemetry unit.

over the ensuing years i've come to realize it is more an individuals personality that looks down or disfavorable towards another colleague, not the level of education/degree they had. i learned so much about hospital beside nursing from the 2 nursing assistants i was charge nurse over as a new lpn on night shift; the asn rn's on middle shift from ireland, phillipines and thailand taught me disease process and medication management; nursing administration taught me to seek knowledge for learning new skills and theories so i could provide the best pateint care; while bsn college taught me to look at the world of nursing in all its variations and to be open to new ideas for change is forever in the healthcare field. the msn program is teaching me to look at what exactly am i doing, why i do what i do, and is there anything different i can incorporate into my practice while it continues to expose me to the rich tapestry of nursing. when we have teamwork, we can do anything and survive.

this is a shiny example of being "well rounded" from continuing education...i salute & applaud your accomplishments. i want to thank you for the above urls for reading...i will be quite busy & will go right to them - moe :kiss

Susy K,

I have said some mean and hurtful things to the nurses on this board. I am usually just venting and it is safer to do that here than at work. I understand your frustration . The difference is my fellow nurse aids look up to me to be their advocate. My head nurse has become my biggest cheerleader. They helped me celebrate my graduation and my acceptance into law school. I have to admit it can be challenging to take orders and have no input. I have to really seperate my self from my job. My nurse aide job did teach me a great lesson.. That job enabled me to go to college and to pursue law school. I learned to be an advocate for the poor. I learned a great deal about work place violence and how to handle angry and combative people. I am a very spiritual individual and I have great respect for human life. I am driven by issues involving social justice, equality and fairness. I worked for eleven years as a nurse aid. I guess my lesson was that I learned more than I realized. I too love college and I graduated with a perfect 4.0. This mind you was after being a HS failure. I too sometimes need a little recognition and I will admit it. I plan on leaving my nursing days behind me. I do realize that it is the most important job Iwill ever have. I believe that it is Gods work and those are his people. There is nothing more important than taking care of your fellow humans. No, career in law will top it or ever be more important.

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