Firearms

[cracklingkraken]

I thought this was an interesting discussion that happened to pop-up on a certain social media site. How many of you conceal carry? And what do you think about prohibiting firearms on hospital property?

I think with the increasing violence these days, safety is a major concern for everyone. How do you protect yourself and still abide by the rules set by your facility?

[sjalv]

Hi

I keep a gun at home but I don't carry one with me. I do not think openly carrying is a smart idea because a deranged person who would shoot openly in public is going to target first those who'd be most of a threat, i.e. those who can fire back.

I can see why hospitals ban firearms. Think about how many patients complain about the care they're receiving when really, they're just disappointed about their own condition. Imagine how many doctors are hated because they tell family they've done all they can do with regard to modern practice, yet they want more.

I've yet to encounter a situation while working where I thought, "Man, I wish I had a gun right now." I avoid dangerous situations by not allowing situations to escalate, and not overstepping my own boundaries. If a situation does escalate, I pass it up the chain of command. Besides, how would you 'carry' at all when wearing scrubs? You'd have to get custom tailored ones with room for a holster. Imagine your nurse walking into the room with a gun strapped to their waist; it isn't very reassurring.

[MunoRN, RN]

I can't think of any type of person who would not be legally allowed to drive a car. I can think of kinds of people who have limits placed on where they drive. Can you give me and example of what you are referring to?

I feel like I know you well enough to not really be sure if you're being serious, but there are a number of ways a person isn't allowed to drive a car, some examples; they have not proven they are proficient in the safe use of a car, they have been found guilty of various crimes involving the use of a car; vehicular manslaughter, repetitive DUI, etc.

Similarly I am unaware of any car characteristic that is illegal. Can you give me an example or two?

Cars are sometimes referred as being "street legal", this refers to cars that are legal to drive in public as opposed to those that aren't, such as those with excessive top speeds, lacking bumpers of approved height, lacking sufficient fenders, lacking sufficient indicators/lights, etc.

[Nonyvole, BSN, RN]

Have my concealed carry permit. Don't carry. I got it because my husband does carry, and sometimes I end up wearing his jacket. With a firearm tucked away in it.

If I need to defend myself at work, there are better ways than a method that has a high degree of inaccuracy in stressful situations and can then be turned around and used to kill me.

[NurseGirl525, ASN, RN]

I grew up in Pennsylvania where deer hunting is huge. The area I grew up in treated the first day of buck season as a holiday. It's always the Monday after Thanksgiving. The kids don't go to school, large employers shut down for the day, it's crazy popular. There is also a very large population of deer there and hunting is how the population is controlled. I worked for a sporting goods company and sold lots of guns. I'm sure most households there have some type of a gun. But, there is a difference between a shotgun and a handgun. I know, they both kill. But most people who are buying a shotgun or a rifle are using it to hunt and not for protection or to kill another person. I worked at stores for this company that sold handguns, mostly in the bigger city areas. When someone buys a handgun it's for one reason only and that is to kill another person, whether in self defense or intentionally to murder someone. So I think a lot of times our gun numbers get skewed and when we think about gun owners, you have to separate the two. I also most often sold a handgun to a normal person who wanted to get one for protection. Criminals are buying their guns on the black market and not in a shop where they have to fill out a 4473 and are subjected to an FBI criminal background check. Most of them already have a felony conviction which bars them from purchasing guns. Back in the 70s and 80s anybody who bought ammunition also had to have that recorded, much as things like sudafed are logged today in the pharmacy.

When looking at things such as suicide which is the number one cause of death among males ages 18-35, there are several factors to consider. Men more likely are going to shoot themselves or hang themselves. They make impulsive decisions and want to make sure it is final. Women are more likely to try to overdose on drugs which is much easier to be saved from. It's not necessarily final. Women are more likely to have second thoughts and overdosing is not necessarily final. Overdosing can be very final especially when combining something else like lying in a tub while doing it, but when you look at shooting yourself in the head over taking a bunch of pills, the outcomes are very different.

I have encountered 3 suicides in my life. All 3 were male, 2 were friends, 1 was a family member. One hung himself, and 2 shot themselves in the head. Both suicides by gun were both handguns.

Most people that follow the guidelines that are set in front of them are responsible gun owners. Those that buy them from the gun runner down the street are the ones that we need to worry about. Carry and Conceal permits or banning guns from certain areas are not going to solve any problems. A sign that says don't bring a gun in isn't going to stop the guy who always carries one in the back of his waistband from not bringing one into the hospital. I would only really be worried about that though in high gang areas. In suburban America, we don't need to be armed at work.

I have thought about what would happen to me if a patient or a family member ever would attack me at work. Thus, it's why I am learning self-defense. I encourage every woman to learn it. I have definitely gotten a confidence boost from learning it. I would also never discourage a woman from carrying a handgun on them if they are responsible and feel that they can use it if the situation arises.

[nursingaround1]

That's concerning. What are you expected to do if a patient attacks you then? Just stand there?

I find this answer concerning. What if the patient has has had a bit to drink, maybe not excessive amounts, but also has a head injury. Head injuries can make a patient irritable, even violent, and there is no way to tell if it's alcohol related, injury related, or they're simply a bad person, but you go ahead and shoot them because you feel threatened.

You might have gone and shot a genuinely ill patient who needed help, not a bullet.

[cracklingkraken, ASN, RN]

I find this answer concerning. What if the patient has has had a bit to drink, maybe not excessive amounts, but also has a head injury. Head injuries can make a patient irritable, even violent, and there is no way to tell if it's alcohol related, injury related, or they're simply a bad person, but you go ahead and shoot them because you feel threatened.

You might have gone and shot a genuinely ill patient who needed help, not a bullet.

My post was not suggesting you shoot them. The PP stated that they could not physically defend themselves against a pt, even in self defense. That's what my question was addressing.

[Farawyn]

My post was not suggesting you shoot them. The PP stated that they could not physically defend themselves against a pt, even in self defense. That's what my question was addressing.

Yea. It's hard to help someone when you are being choked out.

[CaliBoy760]

My mother was an ER nurse in the inner city and she carried a snub nosed .38 in her purse in to work every day. This was long before Draconian laws prevented doing so. I own firearms, but I don't feel that I work in an environment that warrants carrying, either at work or out in public. But, I don't fault those that have a different opinion on the subject.

[Bortaz, MSN, RN]

I'm a male in Texas, former LEO/corrections employee, licensed to carry concealed (and open, come Jan 1) which I do 24/7 if I'm not at work. When at work, I keep it in my car and immediately place it inside my waistband in a holster when I get in the car.

In Texas, employers and private businesses can prohibit concealed carrying on their premises, but they must do it with signage with very specific verbiage (known as 30.06 signs and 51% signs) easily viewable by anyone entering the premises. My hospital has 30.06 signs posted, so it is indeed illegal to carry there.

A lot of restaurants and stores print signs they find on the internet, and hang them. Those signs are not legally binding, and most CCL holders walk right past them with their concealed firearm. I do, but sometimes I'll make an effort to educate the manager before I leave. If I'm carrying (and I always am) and come to a store/restaurant with legal signage banning the firearm, I leave and go elsewhere. I do not just go back to the car to disarm and then go back inside that business.

My wife is also licensed. I started taking her to the range, introduced her to shooting around the new year because she travels for work frequently, and I want her able to defend herself in hotels, parking lots, etc when I'm not there. She LOVES shooting, and we go to the range practically every week for a couple of hours. She's quite good at it, too.

[ERGirl83]

Concealed carry? Ha! I'd be happy if our facility just implemented on campus security 24/7. They open carry, and that seems much more effective.

I am a proponent of concealed and open carry (when done responsibly), but don't personally own guns. I just don't trust myself to own and carry a loaded weapon in a safe responsible manner. I'm sure I'm more likely to kill myself than defend myself.

But, as an ED nurse working all over shifts in an understaffed department, I recognjze how unsafe we really are (even if admin does not) and if I found out another staff member was carrying, I'd be more likely to thank them than report them.

[Pangea Reunited, ASN, RN]

I've never understood this rationale. Someone who drives over the speed limit clearly doesn't care about what the legal speed limit is, should we just do away with speed limits? Someone who robs houses clearly doesn't care that it's illegal, should we just do away with the law that says it's illegal to rob houses?

I've never heard of robbing a house in self defense, so yes ...that should remain illegal- even if people don't care about the law.

[MunoRN, RN]

I've never heard of robbing a house in self defense, so yes ...that should remain illegal- even if people don't care about the law.

Hospitals don't ban firearms on the property because they serve purpose of self-defense, they ban them because they do the opposite. Of shootings that occur in hospital ER's by patients or visitors, 23% of the guns used in those shootings were taken from guards or other staff. Twenty three percent. Of the situations were guards or other staff manage to be the ones that use their guns, those shootings are overwhelmingly inappropriate.

I own guns, I like using guns, but from a basic risk-vs-benefit view I don't see how it makes sense to allow hospital staff to carry.