Firearms

MunoRN, RN · Sep 19, 2015

It is illegal to rob houses to provide a mechanism to correct offenders and keep them out of society until deemed safe to rejoin.
However, we don't make it illegal to own crowbars and glass cutters because they could be used in a crime.
We have speeding tickets, but don't ban cars because someone might speed.

We don't comprehensively ban cars because someone might speed, nor do we comprehensively ban guns, but we do say there are some people who should no longer be allowed to drive a car, there are places where cars shouldn't be allowed, and there are types and characteristics of cars that shouldn't be legal, all pretty reasonable rules whether you're talking about cars or guns.

Dogen · Sep 19, 2015

I own a gun. It was given to me by my grandmother after my grandfather died. I don't own any bullets... but it's still in a handgun case with two padlocks on it. I like shooting guns, and I've had a ton of fun with a 9mm and a shotgun, mostly with a buddy who was a firearms instructor in the army.

That said, I don't worry about being shot by a stranger. At all. It's statistically unlikely (I'm more likely to be murdered by someone I know*), and if I'm going to worry it ought to be useful and lend itself to finding solutions to likely problems. Like worrying about car accidents, and driving a car with a good safety rating as a result. That's a good use of my time. I also worry about my patients committing suicide, where one of the reasons men have a higher risk of dying by suicide is because they're more likely to pick a gun. Given that suicide is the seventh leading cause of death for males and fourteenth for women, despite higher rates of depression in women, asking, "Do you have a gun in the house?" is part of any thorough suicide assessment. Because that also seems like a good use of my time.

There's a lot of data out there on the risks of owning a gun,** and it's just never made a lot of sense to me. So I don't carry a gun, and I'd be uncomfortable if my coworkers carried. What you do in your own time is up to you, naturally, but I'd prefer hospitals be gun-free. Hell, even police officers can't bring a gun on my unit - they lock them in a special bin outside before coming in.

* you'd know this if you ever met me

** murder rates correlate with percent of households with guns, when anyone in a house owns a gun the risk of death by firearm increases for everyone in the household, having a gun in the car correlates with more aggressive driving (including tailgating and other dangerous driving behavior), almost one in four shootings in an ED involved taking a weapon from a security guard (who is, one assumes, actually trained in this sort of thing), there are few if any credible instances of non-LEO civilians stopping a mass shooting with a firearm (not that it's impossible, just that it's statistically unlikely, and thus relevant to my consideration), there is severe racial disparity in who gets shot to death, guns makes suicide easier, several studies have shown people carrying guns during an assault are more likely to be shot than those not carrying guns.

macawake, MSN · Sep 19, 2015

You can put all the gun laws in place that you want, but the CRIMINALS are not going to follow them, so you are only hurting those that want to carry legally to protect themselves. Criminals or someone with bad intent doesn't care if a hospital or other facility has a sign banning weapons on the property, when are people going to get this?!
And when are we as a country going to understand that we do NOT have a gun problem we have a mental health problem in the US!!!

In my opinion you most certainly do have a gun problem. Don't you think that the rest of the first world countries have citizens/residents with mental health problems?

I come from a small country with only ten million inhabitants so you'll have to multiply my numbers by a factor of 32 to compare my stats to yours.

From the year 2000 until today (i.e. almost sixteen years) two police officers have lost their lives in the line of duty. From 1995 until today the police have shot and killed 20 persons. One year (2013) they shot and killed four , and the media were outraged with this record-breaking level of police use of deadly force. To become a police officer you go to the police academy for 2.5 years, the curriculum has a heavy emphasis on sociology, criminology, psychology, conflict management and de-escalation techniques.

Your homicide (firearms) rate per 100.000 is more than four times higher than ours.

There's no easy answer to why so many more people are killed with firearms in your country than mine. There are many different societal factors that affect it. Blaming it on mental illness is however too simplistic an explanation.

Oh, and the very influential/powerful gun lobby in all likelihood don't want citizens who feel safe (without the aid of firearms) as that would negatively affect their bottom line.

I work in a large university hospital with 15.000 employees. I'd be very surprised if even one of them thought it was a good idea for staff to carry firearms. Our security staff aren't armed either.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Sep 19, 2015

Just wanted to mention that while the Washington Post is an interesting article re: gun stats, you would have to provide much more data to determine that 30 out of 100 Canadians carry guns. That's a rather high statistic, and probably skewed depending which region of Canada the authors are referring to.

30 guns per 100 Canadians doesn't mean the 30% of Canadians carry guns, or even that 30% own guns. Nobody made that claim.

We don't comprehensively ban cars because someone might speed, nor do we comprehensively ban guns, but we do say there are some people who should no longer be allowed to drive a car, there are places where cars shouldn't be allowed, and there are types and characteristics of cars that shouldn't be legal, all pretty reasonable rules whether you're talking about cars or guns.

Agreed, and that is the case.

Dogen · Sep 20, 2015

Per your request:
Gun homicides and gun ownership by country - The Washington Post
Canada has 1/3 the guns per capita of the US, but still 30 guns per 100 people. Canada has 1/6 the per capita FIREARM homicide rate. BUT, if someone murders you in Canada they are twice as likely to kill you with something other than a gun vs the US, as if such a statistic mattered.
Discordantly, look at Jamaica which has 1/10 the US guns per capita, but 13x the per capita FIREARM homicide rate and the murder weapon is more likely to be a gun than in the US.
Reminds me of some saying... correlation something something causation... these stats don't inform us of much... except that Canadians have a lot of guns.

I don't want to be a jerk, but if we stopped at "correlation does not imply causation" then we'd have to conclude it's impossible to know what causes death by firearms, and that doesn't seem useful. We can't experiment on "what makes people more likely to kill people," and so all data on this subject will be correlational. We just have to find the strongest correlations and see what affect modifying them has on the end result - human deaths. That does seem useful.

SummitRN, BSN, RN · Sep 20, 2015

I don't want to be a jerk, but if we stopped at "correlation does not imply causation" then we'd have to conclude it's impossible to know what causes death by firearms, and that doesn't seem useful. We can't experiment on "what makes people more likely to kill people," and so all data on this subject will be correlational. We just have to find the strongest correlations and see what affect modifying them has on the end result - human deaths. That does seem useful.

You have somehow misunderstood my comment about a single source I linked to being relatively useless as tantamount to a repudiation of all possible statistical inferences. That is not what I was claiming.

Dogen · Sep 20, 2015

You have somehow misunderstood my comment about a single source I linked to being relatively useless as tantamount to a repudiation of all possible statistical inferences. That is not what I was claiming.

If I extrapolated incorrectly, I'd like to set the record straight. What are you claiming by comparing the number of guns and gun deaths between the US and other countries and citing "correlation does not imply causation?" That seemed like a long row to hoe for your conclusion to simply be "Canadians have a lot of guns."

nrsang97, BSN, RN · Sep 20, 2015

I own a gun. It was given to me by my grandmother after my grandfather died. I don't own any bullets... but it's still in a handgun case with two padlocks on it. I like shooting guns, and I've had a ton of fun with a 9mm and a shotgun, mostly with a buddy who was a firearms instructor in the army.
That said, I don't worry about being shot by a stranger. At all. It's statistically unlikely (I'm more likely to be murdered by someone I know*), and if I'm going to worry it ought to be useful and lend itself to finding solutions to likely problems. Like worrying about car accidents, and driving a car with a good safety rating as a result. That's a good use of my time. I also worry about my patients committing suicide, where one of the reasons men have a higher risk of dying by suicide is because they're more likely to pick a gun. Given that suicide is the seventh leading cause of death for males and fourteenth for women, despite higher rates of depression in women, asking, "Do you have a gun in the house?" is part of any thorough suicide assessment. Because that also seems like a good use of my time.
There's a lot of data out there on the risks of owning a gun,** and it's just never made a lot of sense to me. So I don't carry a gun, and I'd be uncomfortable if my coworkers carried. What you do in your own time is up to you, naturally, but I'd prefer hospitals be gun-free. Hell, even police officers can't bring a gun on my unit - they lock them in a special bin outside before coming in.
* you'd know this if you ever met me
** murder rates correlate with percent of households with guns, when anyone in a house owns a gun the risk of death by firearm increases for everyone in the household, having a gun in the car correlates with more aggressive driving (including tailgating and other dangerous driving behavior), almost one in four shootings in an ED involved taking a weapon from a security guard (who is, one assumes, actually trained in this sort of thing), there are few if any credible instances of non-LEO civilians stopping a mass shooting with a firearm (not that it's impossible, just that it's statistically unlikely, and thus relevant to my consideration), there is severe racial disparity in who gets shot to death, guns makes suicide easier, several studies have shown people carrying guns during an assault are more likely to be shot than those not carrying guns.

Suicides in the family history is the exact reason my mother refused to have a gun in our home. This changed when my brother was into hunting, but then he took hunter safety classes.

BuckyBadgerRN, ASN, RN · Sep 20, 2015

I don't. But DH is a police officer, so he does

CyndiLenz · Sep 20, 2015

Call a code. Follow your procedure.

Mavrick, BSN, RN · Sep 20, 2015

When you carry a gun you better be prepared to use it and shoot someone to kill. That takes a lot more mental shuffling than I'm willing to do on my way in to working at a healthcare facility. I am prepared to de-escalate, defend, and call a code gray if I encounter a dangerous person. Not kill them.

There must be a correlation between carrying a gun and mental health problems because people who carry guns get whack-a-doodle about the power that gun imparts. I believe they think they are tougher, smarter and not near as willing to negotiate a peaceful solution in an altercation and are likely to use that gun.

As impulse control seems to be a fading art, easy access to guns is an especially poor choice in conflict resolution.

No citations. Just my opinion.

CarryThatWeight, BSN · Sep 20, 2015

Call a code. Follow your procedure.

Do you want to know our procedure in the case of an active shooter? Run. That's it. Run. Now, if I have a gun in my purse in my locker, (that's very close to where I'm working), at least I have a CHANCE at taking a shooter down and saving lives, rather than being a sitting duck. I don't think any law should restrict me, a responsible citizen without history of mental illness, from having the right to carry my pistol. Now, I would never carry it in a holster or anything while at work. That's just not safe.

FYI, in Texas no employer can ban anyone from keeping a gun in their vehicle. Not even hospitals. Vehicles are private property. Heck, you can have a gun in your vehicle here even if you don't have a concealed handgun license. You just can't take it out of your car if you don't.